AWA/ US Airways pilot seniority integration

[MD80DRVR]

Hi, md80drvr and PHXFLYR,

Later

How did I get dragged into this???

MD80DRVR

 

[typhoonpilot]

Well, I recall a few TWA types who thought they'd/we'd won the lottery when the AA buyout was announced. Funny how things didn't work out that way. In fact, it's funny in general how predictions for the future don't always pan out. It's certainly true that the demographics favor the younger AWA in the future but that's not the only consideration. As I've written a number of times, what about a reduction in force/furlough? Some form of shared pain is logical. A pure DOH integration puts the next 1500 or so furloughs purely from the AWA side. Your simplification of the issues does nobody any good.

I'm not being simplistic, nor am I suggesting straight DOH for a combined list. I'm merely pointing out that seniority and career progression need to be protected on both sides and that the relative position argument favors AWA pilots over a 15 year UAIR pilot for the remainder of their very short career.

Understandable you are worried about what happens in the event of a future furlough. Obviously you bore the brunt of the previous airline's staple job and have serious concerns, which should be addressed. I've also seen your previous posts and you are one of the few who post logically on this issue. I honeslty believe there is a workable solution. It will neither involve DOH or relative position and will be a complicated series of fences and protections. Smarter people than me are working on it and I'm sure they can come up with a solution.


TP

 

[Guppiedriver]

Formula1,

I'm in the East. The "stapled" thing is the strong opinion of the frequent West posters here that furloughed pilots will (or should) be stapled. They believe it's their birthright to have a 1600 pilot furlough cushion below them plus a head start on the wild run up the seniority list that has mostly uEast retirements in front of them. Sad, the selfish attitudes displayed here.

Merry Christmas!

It looks like the right-of-staple attitude belongs to the East side, starting at the top. How can the AAA MC mention DOH with a straight face? The DOH attitudes displayed here and especially amongst their elected reps is truly sad.


Date: 12-09-05
To: All AWA Pilots
From: AWA Merger Committee
Re: Seniority Integration Update

The AWA Merger Committee met with the AAA Merger Committee in SAN between November 30th and December 2nd, 2005 to continue our discussions over issues regarding seniority integration. The topics we discussed were those items that each party brought to the merger. These included, but were not limited to, the number of aircraft, the number of active pilots, possible staffing levels, and Hawaii flying. While our discussions were frank and professional, unfortunately no progress occurred during these talks on any of the matters critical to a fair resolution of the competing interests of the respective pilot groups.

More particularly, there is no movement in our negotiations on the following key points:
Integration methodology – AAA continues to insist that Date of Hire is a legitimate basis for integrating the two lists.
Placement of furloughed pilots – AAA continues to reject the concept that active pilots who come to the merged airline associated with flying jobs should be placed on the combined seniority list ahead of furloughed pilots.
Credit to AWA for Hawaii flying – AAA has not acknowledged that AWA Hawaiian flying that was planned well before the merger should be “credited” to AWA pilots

In addition, we have not received an official decision from ALPA National regarding the procedure that both sides must use for seniority list employment data certification.

Therefore, after consultation with our legal counsel, the AWA Merger Committee has decided to cancel our PHL negotiations next week. In the best interests of the Pilots at AWA, we have cancelled all future talks with the AAA Merger Committee until we have exchanged certified seniority lists, per the decision rendered by ALPA National. During this time, we will continue to prepare our case for future formal negotiations and mediation/arbitration if that becomes necessary.

 

[TWA Dude]

I'm merely pointing out that seniority and career progression need to be protected on both sides and that the relative position argument favors AWA pilots over a 15 year UAIR pilot for the remainder of their very short career.

Well, as a practical matter I've not seen exactly what a relative seniority integration looks like and I'm not so sure one even exists. It is indeed a challenge to address expected career progression for both sides. I'll leave it at that.

 

[ash5855]

I honeslty believe there is a workable solution. It will neither involve DOH or relative position and will be a complicated series of fences and protections. Smarter people than me are working on it and I'm sure they can come up with a solution.

TP

I've stayed on the sideline for most of this debate and watched the mudslinging from afar. It seems as though TWA and Typhoon are atleast two who can look at the issues logically.

Before I state my views, I must let everyone know that I'm also a junior AWA pilot and will be looking at the situation from that perspective.

It seem to me that current U pilots are worried about the windfall that U attrition might bring junior AWA pilots while Junior AWA pilots (actually, almost all of them considering the huge differences in DOH) are worried about job security and fairness if there is a reduction in force.

I too believe that there probably is a middle ground both sides can eventually come to.

How about this:
First, The basis for the integration would be ratios based on equipment and seat or relative seniority. This would satisfy the major AWA gripe that a DOH type integration would put the majority of their pilots at the bottom and subject to the next round of furlough if this grand experiment should fail. Second, there would be very strict limits and restrictions to protect career expectations of the U pilots. Domicile fencing would protect bases, but most important of all, some kind of language insuring upgrades for former U pilots based on attrition. In other words, If there was 500 U retirements creating 500 upgrade opportunities than 500 pilots have rights to those positions.

Being a junior AWA pilot my career expaectations didn't include a 3-4 year upgrade due to your attrition. On the other hand it didn't include a bump to the bottom of your furlough list (DOH integration) in case this thing tanks.

I know that an arbitrator will most likely decide our fates but I believe, when reasonable people come together they can come to an agreement. Hopefully that is still possible here.

 

[PHXFLYR]

I've stayed on the sideline for most of this debate and watched the mudslinging from afar. It seems as though TWA and Typhoon are atleast two who can look at the issues logically.

Before I state my views, I must let everyone know that I'm also a junior AWA pilot and will be looking at the situation from that perspective.

It seem to me that current U pilots are worried about the windfall that U attrition might bring junior AWA pilots while Junior AWA pilots (actually, almost all of them considering the huge differences in DOH) are worried about job security and fairness if there is a reduction in force.

I too believe that there probably is a middle ground both sides can eventually come to.

How about this:
First, The basis for the integration would be ratios based on equipment and seat or relative seniority. This would satisfy the major AWA gripe that a DOH type integration would put the majority of their pilots at the bottom and subject to the next round of furlough if this grand experiment should fail. Second, there would be very strict limits and restrictions to protect career expectations of the U pilots. Domicile fencing would protect bases, but most important of all, some kind of language insuring upgrades for former U pilots based on attrition. In other words, If there was 500 U retirements creating 500 upgrade opportunities than 500 pilots have rights to those positions.

Being a junior AWA pilot my career expaectations didn't include a 3-4 year upgrade due to your attrition. On the other hand it didn't include a bump to the bottom of your furlough list (DOH integration) in case this thing tanks.

I know that an arbitrator will most likely decide our fates but I believe, when reasonable people come together they can come to an agreement. Hopefully that is still possible here.

I for one am hoping that this is still possible too. But with the AWA Merger
Comittee walking away from the table when their USAir counterparts started
in with there DOH diatrabe , how do we get them back to the table without either group "losing face"?

PHXFLYR

 

[Carl S.]

U only has one goal, and since they can not jump in front of each other on their lists(Mainline,MDA or CEL)they are trying to jump in front as many AWA pilots as possible during this intergration.
I only hope they keep the hardline stance thru mediation and go right into arbitration asking for DOH and every other restrictionon on AWA pilots they can think of( Widebody,Pacific flying). Then they will get worse than relative senority when the arbitrator rules that they were weeks from liqidation and beggars shouldn't be picky and be glad they are not pushing a broom at Home Depot.
The deal is what you bring to the table(i.e. active mainline flying jobs), everything else is a get to you later deal. If you fly a 737 or bigger actively now, you will stay there and when or if there are openings or layoffs then other pilots come into the picture if needed. All past projections of lofty expectations are that, expectations not realities and the past is the past and the future is the NEWCO and if you are a bottom feeder or top dog , thats were you are going to be.
By the way, when one pilot retires at NEWCO, every pilot on the list will move up one number who is below them, reguardless of their past background, race or sex. All non-rev will be DOH ( that is 9/27/05 and beyond for new hires) and I think it is sad that some of AWA bottom pilots may be close to a layoff if needed if they come, when before we were hiring 100+ a year and upgrading in 6+ years but these are the sacrifices we are making while the U pilots get a new lease on life and a $48,000 pension.

 

[Carl S.]

U only has one goal, and since they can not jump in front of each other on their lists(Mainline,MDA or CEL)they are trying to jump in front as many AWA pilots as possible during this intergration.
I only hope they keep the hardline stance thru mediation and go right into arbitration asking for DOH and every other restrictionon on AWA pilots they can think of( Widebody,Pacific flying). Then they will get worse than relative senority when the arbitrator rules that they were weeks from liqidation and beggars shouldn't be picky and be glad they are not pushing a broom at Home Depot.
The deal is what you bring to the table(i.e. active mainline flying jobs), everything else is a get to you later deal. If you fly a 737 or bigger actively now, you will stay there and when or if there are openings or layoffs then other pilots come into the picture if needed. All past projections of lofty expectations are that, expectations not realities and the past is the past and the future is the NEWCO and if you are a bottom feeder or top dog ,
thats were you are going to be.
By the way, when one pilot retires at NEWCO, every pilot on the list will move up one number who is below them, reguardless of their past background, race or sex. All non-rev will be DOH ( that is 9/27/05 and beyond for new hires) and I think it is sad that some of AWA bottom pilots may be close to a layoff if needed if they come, when before we were hiring 100+ a year and upgrading in 6+ years but these are the sacrifices we are making while the U pilots get a new lease on life and a $48,000 pension.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Hi, md80drvr and PHXFLYR,



PHX, I more or less put the stapling comment in my first post to appease your camp; let's face it, though, it's what you guys would like concerning the junior US Air guys (who are currently furloughed although many of us are serving the company as captains in CRJ's....an unprecedented situation in ALPA history, I believe.)

Please don't make me dig up the numerous posts from your guys here that blather all sorts of "to the bottom" and "stapling" remarks. It's all been you boys here on the ever entertaining flightinfo.com



Where you ever got the idea that your "stapling comment" is considered an appeasement to the AWA pilot group is beyond me. To blatantly come out and say that it what our pilot group wants is totally absurd,as are most of your posts on this webboard. What we were really hoping for was to hammer something out between the 2 merger committees at the negotiating table but I guess your team's call for DOH intergration and a permanent seat lock on all international flying INCLUDING the recently started service to HNL by AWA aircraft and crews put an end to any of that happening anytime soon. You guys never cease to amaze me.......

PHXFLYR

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Formula1,

I'm in the East. The "stapled" thing is the strong opinion of the frequent West posters here that furloughed pilots will (or should) be stapled. They believe it's their birthright to have a 1600 pilot furlough cushion below them plus a head start on the wild run up the seniority list that has mostly uEast retirements in front of them. Sad, the selfish attitudes displayed here.

Merry Christmas!

Look at it this way...

What is the career expectation of a furloughed AAA pilot right now? It is to be recalled at the bottom of the seniority list.

According to ALPA merger guidlines your career expectations should not be too negatively affected. If you get "stapled" to the bottom of the list at the new US Airways you will be recalled at the bottom of the new list. Therefore, nothing has changed for you.

The merger, according to ALPA policy, is not to result in any windfalls to either pilot group.

For you to be recalled above any AWA pilot is a windfall in the furloughs' favor. You would go from being on the street for x amount of years to being ahead of me on the seniority list. Give me a break. For all intents and purposes you aren't even on the seniority list right now.

My birthright? I could use the exact same word when describing your insistence that you be recalled and granted a higher seniority number than me...as if you think that it is your birthright to have seniority based on your AAA date of hire.

So when I want my seniority protected I'm whining about my birthright but when some AAA pilot wants his seniority protected he is fighting off the greedy AWA pilots??? I'd say you're a bit myopic.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

For those of you who think we should immediately let some arbitrator decide our fates I think that you are a bit crazy. I personally would like to decide my own fate (or at least try to) before I let some arbitrator who couldn't care less about my career decide it for me. I realize we will probably end up in arbitration anyways...I understand that...but I still think we should try to let our people figure it out first.

I also realize that this will be difficult task when the AAA guys show up to the table and make rediculous and outrageous claims about DOH, including furloughs, and our Hawaii flying.

I believe that relative integration of the two active lists and recalling the AAA furloughs at the bottom of the list with fences and domicile protection is absolutely the fairest way to go.

Why?

With this mode of integration the career expectations of all the pilots are changed very little. All the active pilots will hold their relative positions and equipment while the furloughs will be recalled at the bottom of the list (being recalled at the bottom of the list is their current career expectation). The fences would benifit the furloughs the most by allowing them to be recalled in the domiciles from which they came while protecting my seniority in the long run.

In reality I would say that this merger significantly improves the career expectations of all AAA employees while it changes very little for the AWA employees...but this is a seperate arguement.

I've heard AAA furloughs make the claim that "with all the AAA retirements I would probably have been recalled and would have moved up the seniority list faster than my AWA counterparts. Therefore, my career expectations are higher blah, blah.."

Ok, so your crystal ball says that you were going to be recalled and everything was going to be peachy. Well, my crystal ball says that AAA was going to disappear and you were never going to get recalled. So, since neither of our crystal balls really tell us anything of any use we will just have to go by what we see today...and today I'm active and you are furloughed.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm all for you being recalled...just not at my expense. I'm not willing to trade my seniority for yours.

For those of you who buy into the garbage that we needed US Airways to survive you are wrong. Here are two reasons why Doug Parker says that we did. 1. He was trying to secure capital and giving investors an "either/or dilemma" gives them a sense of urgency to invest and 2. He doesn't want the aquisition of AAA to give the AWA union groups big heads. In other words he didn't want the AWA work groups to show up to the table and use the AWA aqusition of AAA as a negotiating tool. Parker thinks that if we are all under the impression that we need each other to survive then we will be more likely to cooperate with each other.

Maybe at some point we would have had to merge with someone...but we certainly didn't need US Airways. In fact, anyone who I've spoken with who knows anything about corporate finances thinks this whole merger is absolutey insane.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Lets not forget ICAO is going to 65 and that the Senate voted to change as well.
What about stagnation?

 

[MCDU]

Do you think United pilots on furlough would except a staple job in event of a merger with Continental behind all their new hires. I do not think so. Same as with any other pilot group.
US Airways, Delta, Northwest pilots should also not accept their furloughed alpa pilots to be stapled behind new hires.

Marty

 

[Boeingman]

Do you think United pilots on furlough would except a staple job in event of a merger with Continental behind all their new hires. I do not think so. Same as with any other pilot group.
US Airways, Delta, Northwest pilots should also not accept their furloughed alpa pilots to be stapled behind new hires.

Marty

Precedent has already been set in prior mergers with pilots who were on long time furlough. Case in point was Pan Am and National. PAA pilots who were on furlough for many years were placed behind relatively new National pilots. Same example set in the TI/CAL merger.

Arbitrators view career expectations and rely heavily on precedent. In this and other cases pilots currently employed on a given date during an integration were viewed to have better career expectations.

 

[Cactus73]

As far as I understand it anyone employed at MDA at the time of the merger (sept29) is considered an active US Airways pilot for integration purposes. That is going to be interesting when it comes time to merge the lists. Guess we will see.

Not true!

This is one of the disagreements between the two merger committee's and will likely be an arbitration issue. All seniority lists show MDA pilots as furloughed. What the certified lists show is up for debate. The two lists will not be certified until the end of January, so there has been no final agreement on this.

AWA tried and failed to fly Hawaii routes many years ago. It is only because of the additonal east coast feed and UAIR frequent flyers that the route can now be tried again.

AWA was not on the FAA's five month ETOPS program. Our ETOPS certification took about 18 months on the 757. This was a long planned route and had nothing to do with the merger. I agree that the merger makes the routes even better than us, but we were going regardless.

AWA failed in 1991 due to old 747's, empty onward flights to Nagoya Japan, and the gulf war. Hawaii has also transformed itself from a once in a lifetime destination for American's to a normal getaway much like Florida or Arizona.

I'm in the East. The "stapled" thing is the strong opinion of the frequent West posters here that furloughed pilots will (or should) be stapled. They believe it's their birthright to have a 1600 pilot furlough cushion below them plus a head start on the wild run up the seniority list that has mostly uEast retirements in front of them. Sad, the selfish attitudes displayed here.

The only staple advocated is from the AAA merger committee. They want DOH and that is a staple.

Please post where I said it's my birthright to have 1600 pilot furlough cushion below me.

Am I selfish because I don't want to trade my ACTIVE position to bring you back from furlough?

PHX, I more or less put the stapling comment in my first post to appease your camp; let's face it, though, it's what you guys would like concerning the junior US Air guys (who are currently furloughed although many of us are serving the company as captains in CRJ's....an unprecedented situation in ALPA history, I believe.)

Unprecedented? I don't think so. Every regional fee for departure ALPA Captain at companies such as MESA, Expressjet, Air Wisconsin, are flying our passengers and serving as the company as captains. The flowback situation at Expressjet after 9/11 is a good example. They were clearly furloughed from CAL and put on the XJT seniority list flying CAL customers. They were paid by XJT and were considered XJT pilots even though they displaced over 500 pilots.


Arbitration here we come!