AWA/ US Airways pilot seniority integration

[TWA Dude]

It is my understanding that those currently furloughed would REMAIN on furlough-status regardless of where their new seniority falls.

You are correct.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Dude, I do not work for USAir.

Settle down
I guess u bit the bait.

Marty

Dude, why don't you like shut up or something?

 

[Taco Rocket]

Keep arguing

Ornstein needs more time to get the next -900 order ready.

Divide and conquer!

 

[A350]

Why you all treat Marty so bad? He is entitled to his opinion just like you are yours. You don't have to like his position any more than he likes yours.

Just remember one thing. When the inevitable arbitration is over, you will be on the same team. I would suggest getting used to that fact.

A350

 

[Hpilot]

Hey Marty,

I'll bite. How about all those 14-18yr US Air guys that have been coming over here for the past couple years? It must have been their awesome career expectations. Ohh wait a second....doesn't it say something about career expections in the ALPA merger policy. Ohhhh, and AWA guys don't get too riled about his comments, he obviously plays for the other team.

 

[psysix]

I know a guy currently at AWA that still has his USAir seniority number. He said AWA never made him resign it. Does that mean that he can choose where to go in the final seniority list? Meaning if he'd have better seniority keeping his US number can he keep it even though he currently works for AWA?

 

[Helos2Galaxy]

I am curious to see how the integration happen. AT Delduh, we just authorized an assessment of .025% for merger committee expenses to protect and fight for us in the event of a merger.

Now I'm no genius and only had a 3.9 GPA in grad school, but, why in the heck would DALPA be funding a merger committee if (behind closed doors with KY) something was brewing?

 

[TWA Dude]

Does that mean that he can choose where to go in the final seniority list?

I'm sure this situation will be spelled out in detail but I'd presume he'll get the better number.

...why in the heck would DALPA be funding a merger committee if (behind closed doors with KY) something was brewing?

Every substantial-sized carrier should have a merger fund and a committee ready to go, brewing or not.

 

[AA717driver]

Well, for those of you ill informed. There are a few hundred pilots on furlough at US Airways that have worked there for 15 yrs and held Captain positions.

One of my best friends was a Metro Jet Capt. and this is his first furlough. Get the facts.cheers
Marty

Boo F'ing Hoo! Tell your buddy to get in line behind all of us former TWA CAPTAINS who are out on the street. When ALPA failed to stand behind the TWA pilot group the die was cast for future mergers.

USAir is in bankruptcy for the second time. The pilots have no career expectations. How mergers were done by the bankrupt USAir has no bearing on how future mergers will be done.

As for your comments about the AWA pilot group, I'd rather fly with ANY Cactus pilot (except for one...) ANY day than someone like you or 90% of the USAir pilots I've run into over the years.TC

 

[TWA Dude]

As for your comments about the AWA pilot group, I'd rather fly with ANY Cactus pilot (except for one...)

Jeepers, TC, you might as well have spelled out my name and SSN! :laugh:

 

[Falconjet]

Now there's the spirit!

FJ

 

[PositiveRate]

It was my understanding that the merger committees and/or the arbitrator will create a new list and that's it. All this other BS about slotting, fences, recalls, etc. would be handled by the JNC negotiating our new contract using the new list. The role of the arbitrator seems to be limited if this is the case...Someone please correct me, if this is not true...

The precedent of Pan Am / National and CAL / TI as well as Doug saying that he won't accept a list that puts furloughees above active pilots seems to make that issue cut and dry as well.

 

[A350]

All:

I don't think anyone who is furloughed should replace anyone who is active.....however......

I don't think that someone who has 17 years of longevity should go behind a new hire either on the total list. I also think that the total attrition for the next few years should go into the equation. A new AWA pilot shouldn't windfall to the A330 in 10 years because of U list retirements while a U pilot languishes on reserve.

It never ceases to amaze me the hatred and vitriol that can be created when discussing seniority.

As I said earlier, better get your ducks in a row because it will be over soon and you will all be playing on the same team. How that plays out in the future has more to do with your career expectations than anything else.

Happy New Year

A350

 

[m80drvr]

Hey A350
I agree the future retirements should be taken into account especially since the age 65 thing will surely pass. Then USeast brings no retirements to the table. Be carreful what you wish for.

 

[A350]

md80drvr:

Nothing changes with the age 60 rule change.....U still has massive retirements coming that should be factored in. In fact, a case could be made with the rule changing, it makes the career progression even more ominous at AWA since there are a whole lot less retirements there than at U.

BTW, I am only a casually interested observer. I have a U number, but never plan on using it again. However, I have to refrain from using the never word.

Further, I would be more worried about your management being able to execute post merger than I would be the seniority arguement.

A350

 

[MCDU]

I think the America West pilots and the US Air pilots are both a great bunch.
I wish them well and I hope things will work out for both groups. At least they are both alpa and I hope what happend to the TWA folks will not happen during this merger. TWA pilots got really screwed by AA.

Marty

 

[m80drvr]

That from the guy that called awa guys drunks and the dregs of the aviation world. LOL

350
I might have agreed with you except before the merger AWA was taking airplanes, and in fact still is. Captain upgrade was 5 to 6 years and they were growing.

Airways was in bankrupcy for the second time with no more financing alternatives, and they were still shrinking, please don't count the e170 as growth. We all know that MDA was a commuter. No offense to the MDA pilots but that's what it was.
The overlying fact is that no one knows what will happen in arbitration, I think the Airways guys are playing a dangerous game demanding DOH and that recalls be slotted above ANY AWA pilot. I think the arbitrators ruling might surprise them.
I hope they (Both merger comittees) can work this out but I don't think it will happen.

 

[Carl S.]

U gets to keep flying, yet only wants to bone AWA pilots at all costs. Retirements, if there was no merger. U would be gone or greatly shrunk again and all those old FO would still be FO's, but no!!!!! I want to go ahead of the AWA pilots because I got screwed, so I have to get them screwed or else I'm not happy. Be glad you still have a job and are able to dream about screwing other pilots and get to collect a $48,000 pension that no AWA pilot will ever see(Oh wait, I forgot about that bonus) and want some first chance at upgrading over AWA pilots who are younger.

Happy Kwanzaa!

 

[Doug Parker]

.


Nevermind -

I'll be back in 6 months to talk about it...................



.

 

[JetMonkey]

These AAA Merger committee guys must be part of the hopefully small batch of radicals over there (we have ours too). Everyone I've meet so far from the east have been great, of course I've haven't discussed integration with any of them. I don't know the names of these merger committee boys but if I ever fly with any of them I'll definitely ask "what were you guys smoking"? :nuts:

 

[Swaayze]

Jeeeez, why so balled up about the U guys who earned pensions in the neighborhood of 6 figures actually getting a small portion of the money they were promised? What does that have to do with any of this merger stuff?

All y'all (that's plural Texan) just get over it. The arbitrator will figure it out. Everyone will be pissed. The furloughees will be at the bottom, and it won't matter much anyway because age 65 is coming and recalls won't happen for many more years.

Cheery enough for ya? Unfortunately I'm just trying to be realistic.

 

[aa73]

I think the America West pilots and the US Air pilots are both a great bunch.
I wish them well and I hope things will work out for both groups. At least they are both alpa and I hope what happend to the TWA folks will not happen during this merger. TWA pilots got really screwed by AA.

Marty

Apples to oranges.... While I agree that a significant number of TWA pilots got the shaft, you must realize that the AA/TWA deal was an asset acquisition (more like a debt acquisition) - and the AWA/USAir deal is a merger between both airlines. Even ALPA has different standards of integration for the two - one is called Merger policy, and the other is Fragmentation policy. If AA/TWA would have been a true merger, I suspect the APA would have given a straight ratio integration. But it wasn't.

I'd be careful depending on ALPA anyways - if you want historical precedent regarding asset acquisitions between two ALPA carriers, look no further than DAL/PanAm in '91, and look at what happened to the Pan Am pilots.

 

[aa73]

Before some TWA pilots jump down my throat, my above post is only meant to point out the fact that even between two ALPA carriers, an asset acquisition type deal (fragmentation policy) doesn't necessarily require that the pilots of the acquired carrier gain employment at the acquiring carrier - even though in past deals, the acquiring airlines have almost always taken at least some of the pilots. It is my understanding that APA used the historical precedent of the DAL/PanAm deal and implemented a lot of similar concepts. However, DAL only took some of the Pan Am pilots, whereas AA took the whole TWA pilot group.

OK - enough details. Bottom line- I hope you AWA/US guys and gals keep it professional, and by NO MEANS should you engage in the name calling and put downs the APA made famous during our deal. Immature to say the least - I did a lot of apologizing on behalf of my own union when I was based in STL.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

....and by NO MEANS should you engage in the name calling and put downs the APA made famous during our deal...

You wouldn't happen to have that list of put downs handy would you? I might need the wisdom of the APA's experienced workforce to help out my vocabulary.

I am, afterall, just a caveman.

 

[FR8mastr]

please don't count the e170 as growth. We all know that MDA was a commuter. No offense to the MDA pilots but that's what it was.
.

MDA a commuter? you need a reality check and quick! the AAA mec convinced themselves of that thinking " its a small airplane and I'm a superior large airplane flyer so the MDA thing is of no concern to me"
This "commuter" is directly replacing DC-9, F-100, F-28, 737-200. and BA 146 flying that was and still is ML flying. I sure hope I am just not getting the point you are trying to make. Because if you really believe what I quoted above, we will never get anything like a profession back.

 

[A350]

First, MDA was Mainline. If you don't like it, that is your right, but MDA was mainline on the mainline certificate. Those pilots were recalled to mainline, but under a C scale contract. You sure consider the 190 mainline, don't you? That is like calling the 757 a commuter craft and the 767 a mainline craft.

Further, if you think taking airplanes a few here and there makes you a growth junkie, that is your right.

BTW, no U pilot receives a $48,000 pension.....it is more like $28,000. And that is 6 figures less than it should have been. And further, what the hell does that have to do with the merger?

Better opt to get along with each other. Unfortunately, the last guy at Indy Air and the first guy are all in the same boat. No matter what your number ends up being, better bury the hatchet and get on with putting out a quality product. Otherwise, it won't matter whether you are a Captain, FO, junior or senior.

A350

 

[aa73]

You wouldn't happen to have that list of put downs handy would you? I might need the wisdom of the APA's experienced workforce to help out my vocabulary.

I am, afterall, just a caveman.

Kmart pilots, Hot dog vendors, to name a few. The arrogance was truly amazing.

 

[maru657]

AWA is still around because John McCain sold his soul for home town jobs. I suspect part of the deal with elements of the majority party was keeping US Air from total failure with the resultant thousands of angry voters on the street. That is part of what cost the bush 1 administration it's second chance.

 

[AA717driver]

TWA Dude--Sorry, I forgot, make that TWO Cacti's...

Actually, the one is a "native" AWA'er hired around '87 or '88. Former States West type. Blowhard. Backstabber. Slim... Oh well, if I say any more, I might as well give his name and SSN.

Take care, dude.TC

P.S.--How's married life treating you so far?

 

[BeCareful!]

Regarding growth, look at what has occured at PSA and with MDA over the past three years: Well over $1 billion invested in these entities, and all of it from U Group's financial maneuvering. It's not the kind of growth that pilots want, I know, but it's growth of the airline nontheless (not a windfall to Johnny O and the boys). And, that growth has taken place on the backs of U labor.

In other words, I think in terms of aricraft aquistions U has "grown" much more over the past three years. Unfortunately, management won big time by making sure those aircraft provided jobs that were low-paying. Either way, it was growth, it was just a different aircraft type being invested in; leave it to U management to figure out how to grow their system and screw the pilots at the same time And all the while, doing a great job of hiding the money.