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avantair.......union? Is it time.....again?

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P180puke said:
Yea, I know, I don't like unions either.
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I'm just wary of them because I came from a place that had the phrase "to the extent possible" all over the contract. That translated into "Let's (mgmt) do whatever we want." When the pilots grieved the violation, it took several months to get to arbitration and many times the grievences were negotiated away to supposedly prevent future violations.

My point being if my interests/needs (family, QOL and such) are best met with direct communication I would prefer that. If I need a middleman to help protect my interests I will gladly pay/help for that service.
 
oneeye_169 said:
For all curious pilots...avantair is not a bad place to work.
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U kidding? Two pilots thrown on the altar to please shareholders (allegedly)? The writing is on the wall; noone wants to work at a place where their career can be threatened. You are correct, though, you do need a union.

C
 
Avantair is run by lawyers.
All pilots had to sign new contracts this year basically stating they don't need a reason to fire anyone. If you don't sign, you don't have a job.
Avantair gave these pilots the choice to resign or be fired all before the NTSB or FAA reports were complete.
It's no surprise Avantair's priority is to butter up the sharholders, feed them with BS, tell them they fired the pilots responsible. Pilot error.....always the reason for an accident right??? Couldn't possibly be a maintenance issue!!!! We need a union, we need one now. Avantair's growth has made us more dispensible, we're just numbers, easily replaceable and you could be fired tomorrow for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's a shame these guys had to take the fall.
 
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the breaks should be antilock, and directional control can get squirlly if used to much, we need to get a statement from ops to let pilots know what happened
 
If the brakes locked up and the plane got a little out of shape, ie. sideways causing an extreme sideload that could easily exceed the intended design limits of the main gear.
By the way this airplane is suposed to have an antiskid system.
 
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not really a break problem, I ment to say the reverse (beta) range can throw some crazy air across the rudder if used too much
 
i would like to speculate on the brakes and figure out what happened just like mgmt, but until the proper reports come out... WHICH THEY HAVEN'T, then the only thing i care about is why these guys got ousted for nothing. i also want to know why they didn't have any support from the guys in the room who are supposed to be a voice for them. no more promises or attempted buttering up for me. the list of reasons for a union just keep on growing. its time for a union, and i hope proper progress is being made to get to vote one in.
 
another thing, i don't think the pilots here are dumb enough to fall for whats going on. the pilots who have been getting complimented these past days do deserve it. i think however, it is just being done to try to offset the damage of forcing those two pilots to resign. i feel kind of insulted if that was the intended gesture. which i feel it is.
 
oneeye_169 said:
another thing, i don't think the pilots here are dumb enough to fall for whats going on. the pilots who have been getting complimented these past days do deserve it. i think however, it is just being done to try to offset the damage of forcing those two pilots to resign. i feel kind of insulted if that was the intended gesture. which i feel it is.
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Yeah- it's called a redirect. Avantair is famous for it.
 
I guess you could say I am bitter at some people at Avantair because they thought it was funny for me to fly myself down to FL and waste my time with an interview when they knew damn well they weren't going to ever offer me a job! In fact I had a panel interview! 3 people sat there and asked me questions I bet those a-holes couldn't even answer if they hadn't looked up the answer themselves. I was even briefed that I shouldn't post what they asked me here because they want to truly try and hire quality pilots. What does that have to do with this thread you ask? Well from what I understand they just forced some quality pilots to resign because a main gear collaped while taxiing in. I was working for a union at another company and it was made very clear to me that any union activities would be thwarted at all costs. The limited exposure I've had with C.M. and E.P. was very disappointing. I say you guys sign the cards and get yourself protected and do it quickly! Who is to say you won't be next? From what I understand the conract at netjets is pretty good! Somebody needs to call the teamsters and get that ball rolling! I'd even call ALPA. I'm sure they would love to get their hands on a fractional. Need the dues!!!
 
During the conference call management wouldn't comment on the FLL incident, due to the investigation being on-going, so how could they fire the pilots involved?? Don't comment, redirect focus and the problem goes away. Do they think we're stupid!
I guess if anyone finds themselves in a difficult situation they could always get support from the pilot committee!!!!! Who needs a union with them backing you?
 
jetpilot007 said:
I guess you could say I am bitter at some people at Avantair because they thought it was funny for me to fly myself down to FL and waste my time with an interview when they knew dang well they weren't going to ever offer me a job! In fact I had a panel interview! 3 people sat there and asked me questions I bet those a-holes couldn't even answer if they hadn't looked up the answer themselves. I was even briefed that I shouldn't post what they asked me here because they want to truly try and hire quality pilots. What does that have to do with this thread you ask? Well from what I understand they just forced some quality pilots to resign because a main gear collaped while taxiing in. I was working for a union at another company and it was made very clear to me that any union activities would be thwarted at all costs. The limited exposure I've had with C.M. and E.P. was very disappointing. I say you guys sign the cards and get yourself protected and do it quickly! Who is to say you won't be next? From what I understand the conract at netjets is pretty good! Somebody needs to call the teamsters and get that ball rolling! I'd even call ALPA. I'm sure they would love to get their hands on a fractional. Need the dues!!!
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Let me get this straight- they told you during the interview that they didnt want you to discuss it on this forum? !!!!!!!
Any company that does that has bigger problems to worry about. Like.....

Why would it matter if they had the respect of the avation community?
Why are they so worried about a union? If they were on the up and up, they wouldn't need to worry about it. Stock price, I assume, is their concern.

Jetpilot007, you should feel good about yourself that this company didn't want you. Means you're doing something right. As for C.M. the only reason he's sitting across the desk from anyone is because he's peering out from his permanent position inside the CEO's butt. The part he hasn't figured out yet is that he's a figurehead- a lightning rod for the FAA- to be sold down the river when the time comes. When that time comes, it'll be cold out there.
 
Here is the best part they do not want FOs flying PAX legs or metro airport legs.Yet there are about 10 captains that work there that I would not trust flying a dead hooker around a 172 VFR.
 
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What base for the pilots from?

Thanks
 
Geez, what base were the the pilots from?

Happy?
 
Rally said:
Geez, what base were the the pilots from?

Happy?
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why does that matter? they were wrongfully let go. We need a union.
i've heard recently about a few other things coming down the pipeline. it just keeps getting better and better. that is sarcasm of course. i can't wait until i get a union interest card.
 
oneeye_169 said:
why does that matter? they were wrongfully let go. We need a union.
i've heard recently about a few other things coming down the pipeline. it just keeps getting better and better. that is sarcasm of course. i can't wait until i get a union interest card.
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Don't wait till you get a union interest card, brother. Go on the internet, get a phone number, make a few calls. YOU can get the ball rolling. Just be discreet.
 
oneeye_169 said:
why does that matter? they were wrongfully let go. We need a union.
i've heard recently about a few other things coming down the pipeline. it just keeps getting better and better. that is sarcasm of course. i can't wait until i get a union interest card.
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wrongfully let go? i'm not so sure. when i went through pie, i got to see the pictures, diagrams and reports about the landing event. word is that the feds and ntsb are leaning heavily toward pilot error due to the abundance of evidence to indicate so. the pictures and diagrams will end up as a training scenerio to help train others on how to avoid similar mistakes.
 
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hangarrat said:
the pictures and diagrams will end up as a training scenerio to help train others on how to avoid similar mistakes.
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Training Step 1:

Don't panic and jam on the brakes in an airplane with hydraulically boosted brakes and no anti-skid - I'll never understand that about the Piaggio.

Not saying that it caused the gear collapse, but I'll bet the blown tire mentioned in the NTSB report happened prior to gear collapse.

Ask some of the guys that have been at the company for a while and they can tell you how many junked tires there were early on (blown, flat spotted, etc). Don't know if it has improved as experience in type has been gained.

It's not hard to do with no anti-skid and carbon brakes.
 
NJA bound said:


What the fk don't you like about union representation?

Do you like working for peanuts???? With no work rules??

Do you even understand what a labor union is?

It's workers uniting as ONE and standing up to management and fighting for what is right!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Couldn't have said it better myself!

Ditto!

Bump..

etc..
 
hangarrat said:
wrongfully let go? i'm not so sure. when i went through pie, i got to see the pictures, diagrams and reports about the landing event. word is that the feds and ntsb are leaning heavily toward pilot error due to the abundance of evidence to indicate so. the pictures and diagrams will end up as a training scenerio to help train others on how to avoid similar mistakes.
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So you must have been talking to CM or TC. Anyone who knows the real facts knows this wasn't pilot error. An uneventful landing leads to a blown tire...the landing gear subsequently collapses after the steering was put in. Why did the tire blow? The FO says he didn't touch the brake. P-180 wheels have locked up for other pilots. There was no side loading, so why did the landing gear collapse? That should be the focus here.
Pictures can't give you all the facts...management at Avantair are doing everything possible to make this pilot error. Of course they don't want the owners to know there might be a design fault with the aircraft or with maintenance.
These guys should have been explaining a blown tire...the landing gear should be able to withstand that. As suggested previously that there was a heavy side loading, why was there a perfectly straight line down the runway? You would think sideloading would cause some swerving marks instead.
How would you know what the NTSB and FAA are leaning toward? There's NO report out yet. Avantair are the only ones leanig toward pilot error. Abundance of evidence...what exactly are you talking about?
 
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