avantair.......union? Is it time.....again?

[P180puke]

So, the word is the crew that had the gear fail on them in FLL was asked to resign or be fired. Maybe their fault, maybe not. Maybe it's justified, maybe not. Given this a/c's history and the crew's insistence of a normal landing (backed by CVR?), I'd guess not. I understand pressure to "admit" error was applied as well, to no avail.

Yea, I know, I don't like unions either. But with proper representation, mngmt can't easily make you the scapegoat as they did in this case, it appears. The ink wasn't even dry before we started hearing all the silly rules, etc.

Firing the monkeys always looks better to the shareholders.

We boys and girls may need this: http://org.teamster.org/faqs.htm

 

[Seat 0A]

Yea, I know, I don't like unions either.

Ya know, I am always puzzled by this comment. Why EXACTLY do you not like unions? Have you had a bad union experience?

How many folks out there would enter into say, a $500,000 building project without a contract? I would say that person would be acting recklessly. The job that will feed your family and put a roof over your head should be no different. Sh*t happens, especially in this field, and the repercussions can often be far worse than someone working on an assembly line that puts a part in upside down.

I have over 20 years experience in union shops. A couple of those were in manufacturing. In that setting I will say that a union sometimes only protected those who did not want to work. The "slackers". In aviation that is not the case, we all work hard. For the most part in aviation the union representation actually provides for SAFER work rules than can be expected by the regs. It also provides some form of representation when an "oh sh*t" happens. It is so easy for an at-will employer to let a pilot take the rap for an incident and protect the company certificate. They also benefit when they lose a pilot making $150k/yr and replace him with one for $20K. Win-win for the company.

You "don't like" unions. Hopefully you like getting bent over and taking the management shaft. Even those who "think" they have the world by the balls at certain merit based companies will be the sacrificial lamb when the time comes. Ask the guys who have been passed over during a selective recall from furlough/layoff at a company without a CBA how they feel. Ask the ones who get to "bend" the prospective rest requirement (one call during rest is ok, etc). Total BS and no way out of it.

Now why would a person have to resign in the landing gear case? Would he not be worthy of retraining? Maybe a great pilot that had a bad day. Perhaps if he was an A-teamer but still a piss-poor pilot he would get a second chance. Ya see, there is no standard because there is no CONTRACT. NO STANDARDS for the employee and the company to be held to.

Most refuse to accept this until it affects THEM or someone close to them. That day is approaching at some unknown rate.

 

[NJA bound]

Yea, I know, I don't like unions either.

What the fk don't you like about union representation?

Do you like working for peanuts???? With no work rules??

Do you even understand what a labor union is?

It's workers uniting as ONE and standing up to management and fighting for what is right!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[P180puke]

Thanks guys. EXACTLY the response I was expecting to support the post.

Before you get your nuts too wadded up, realize I'm on your side.

I don't like insurance either, but I have it and need it.

 

[myrealnameis]

I had not heard the verdict related to the 2 crewmembers, this is shocking and disappointing to say the least. Now I am begining to see that we indeed are on our own. Sad.

 

[brewerdog]

gee, nja b , how do you really feel???

 

[fischman]

So, the word is the crew that had the gear fail on them in FLL was asked to resign or be fired. Maybe their fault, maybe not. Maybe it's justified, maybe not. Given this a/c's history and the crew's insistence of a normal landing (backed by CVR?), I'd guess not. I understand pressure to "admit" error was applied as well, to no avail.

Yea, I know, I don't like unions either. But with proper representation, mngmt can't easily make you the scapegoat as they did in this case, it appears. The ink wasn't even dry before we started hearing all the silly rules, etc.

Firing the monkeys always looks better to the shareholders.

We boys and girls may need this: http://org.teamster.org/faqs.htm

I am biased, but I think it is time P180puke. I was raised very anti-union, my parents and grandparents were all management. Having said that, I will NEVER work at a place that does not have a union.

 

[av8orboy]

You guys should worry about this first before you worry about a union.​

 

[gunfyter]

You guys should worry about this first before you worry about a union.​

Why worry about that? There are other people whose job it is to worry about that.

The best thing a pilot can do ... is do his own job as professionally as possible. Thats what managements hire us to do. Let the accountants and MBAs worry about business.

 

[av8orboy]

Why worry about that? There are other people whose job it is to worry about that.

The best thing a pilot can do ... is do his own job as professionally as possible. Thats what managements hire us to do. Let the accountants and MBAs worry about business.

It's hard to pay your pilots more money when your company took a 36% hit in 1Q. I think they should go with the union. That will guarantee that I will make some more money shorting AACQ.

 

[DirtyBeech]

What the fk don't you like about union representation?

Do you like working for peanuts???? With no work rules??

Do you even understand what a labor union is?

It's workers uniting as ONE and standing up to management and fighting for what is right!!!!!!!!!!!!

Loud Noises!!!

 

[gunfyter]

It's hard to pay your pilots more money when your company took a 36% hit in 1Q. I think they should go with the union. That will guarantee that I will make some more money shorting AACQ.

Was someone asking for more money?

I don't care whether you make money or lose money shorting stocks. The value of the stock will have little to do with whether there is a union on the property or not... but with the competency of the Management and strength of the business plan.

 

[angryoneincher]

A union would be a great idea.

A great start would be a DO and a chief pilot that have any balls. Right now there isn't one stone between the two of them. They have a history of being no support to any pilot who hits a rough patch, whether it be a bad day, or being ********************ed by management. Guys, get with it.

 

[av8orboy]

......

 

[av8orboy]

gunfyter: Was someone asking for more money?

Historically when a company unionizes the first thing employees want in compensation.

 

[oneeye_169]

it is definitley time for a union. i have constantly been filling out forms in order to protect the company, signing policies that end saying, "all subject to change and employee can be dismissed without reason." i don't want a union for more money. i want a union for job protection. the disciplinary board isn't even set up fair. the decider vote is hr. they tend to protect the company at all cost. not to mention the pilots on the board don't seem to be on the pilot's side. we need the ability to be able to go to a neutral arbitrator. these guys should not lose their jobs. they shouldn't even have been disciplined within a two week period for that type of incident. if they said it was a normal landing, then there is no way to prove that it wasn't. i keep hearing people mention the cvr. that wouldn't do much. unless the pilots were heard saying that it was a hard landing or that they messed up. even then, they can't use the tape against them. i think p180puke, might be thinking of the FDR, which the plane doesn't have. they couldn't use that against them either. so hanging these guys out to dry is complet BS. i've also flown with a couple of FO's who say they are worried about speaking up to certain captainsin fear that it would affect their upgrade. meaning, managemnt would contact those captains for opinions on various FO's, and the captain would not give them a good recommendation. the FO's should be able to speak up in the cockpit without worry. we have alot of experienced FO's. they need to start using a true seniority list and stop hanging upgrades over FO's heads. it would make for a safer cockpit.

Also, i counted eight pilots who i have talked with the past two weeks who are having some form of trouble in dealing with Pservices. a union could help with this as well.

anyway, i'm really annoyed. i like this company, i like the people in the training dept, i yhink avantair has a good future. however, as we start to grow and get more pilots, the closeness of a small company is going to go away. With that, the pilots need protection. something real. not a board setup to appear to be legit. this is the wrong industry to be terminated from or even a forced resignation. i hope p180puke actually filled out the organizing form and didn't just post the link.

i am sure alot of people here will fill out those union interest cards. and i think this time the pilots won't be bought off temporarily by promise.

i also hope pilots at avantair will stop worrying about disciplinary action if they post on a blog site. if management's biggest worry is what pilots are posting, instead of running a successful business, then the company is doomed anyway.

+job protection
+better work rules

lets do it.

 

[mooney flier]

Can anyone actually verify that these pilots were terminated?

 

[angryoneincher]

i also hope pilots at avantair will stop worrying about disciplinary action if they post on a blog site. if management's biggest worry is what pilots are posting, instead of running a successful business, then the company is doomed anyway.

+job protection
+better work rules

lets do it.

I know for a fact that at one point Santos contacted whoever's charge of flightinfo.com and tried to bribe them into revealing identities. They told him to f off, and that unless law enforcement made them do that for criminal reasons of some sort, that if would never happen. LOL. What a weenie.

 

[CherryBomb]

I know for a fact that at one point Santos contacted whoever's charge of flightinfo.com and tried to bribe them into revealing identities. They told him to f off, and that unless law enforcement made them do that for criminal reasons of some sort, that if would never happen. LOL. What a weenie.

You have got to be kidding me?!?!?!?
Way to go FI guys!!

 

[NJAPLT]

I know for a fact that at one point Santos contacted whoever's charge of flightinfo.com and tried to bribe them into revealing identities. They told him to f off, and that unless law enforcement made them do that for criminal reasons of some sort, that if would never happen. LOL. What a weenie.

Yikes, goes to show you that the companies and their union busting laywers know about this site, and report everything they read. Be careful, sounds like they are trying to identify the employees with prounion thoughs to fire them.

Hopefully people haven already contacted an organization like the Teamsters 1108 on the process get unionized. I would think that they would have good advice how to avoid getting identified by the company while conducting the initial steps to organize (or at least guage the interest in organizing within the pilot group.)

Good luck.