avantair.......union? Is it time.....again?

[PilotChapin]

No, I don't think that B19 missed the point, he is waiting for management to lead him thru life

Well either way, management is about to feel a big hit. I know a good number of Pilots at avant, and they are all about to leave. And by "about to leave" I mean, that a couple of them are interviewing elsewhere, others are just waiting for the final call and others are border line just about to quit. I can only imagine what that's going to do avants image and pocket when they lose a few more pilots this month. Well fellas it looks like your 7 on 7 off might not last much longer. This company instead of moving forward is moving backwards. And NO these are not the so called "growing pains".

 

[B19 Flyer]

What the fk don't you like about union representation?

Do you like working for peanuts???? With no work rules??

Do you even understand what a labor union is?

It's workers uniting as ONE and standing up to management and fighting for what is right!!!!!!!!!!!!

From CLOSE friends I have personally witnessed: One divorce (3 children involved), One bankruptcy (two children involved), One suicide (two children involved) I have personally been laid off twice as a non-flying pilot in management positions (two children involved). That won't happen any longer, because I refuse to work for a union carrier which GUARANTEES me my job security. BTW, the divorce and bankruptcy were pilots with over 5 years of seniority that were on the lower third of the seniority list while the union protected the top two thirds. All as a direct result of union activity that would have never happened if the carrier was non-union. I've seen more furloughs and layoffs of both flying and non-flying employees because of union activity than I ever have in a non-union carrier. So, if you want to know why there is a clear disdain for unions, over twenty years of experience as a flying pilot and in management tells me that it's not the way to go. I'm no longer in management and I'm not with Avantair but I have friends there and I always say, be careful what you ask for. I could never make the money I make now with a union carrier because the resources would not be there because they would be sucked up by the union.
And for those others that think that I "Don't get it?" Go to a friend's funeral sometime because he got laid off as a direct result of a union activity and couldn't pay his bills. See if you walk away with the same opinion after. Be careful what you ask for. I don't believe if a union gets it's grips on Avantair that the carrier can survive. It's too young and the financials just aren't there. Bring a union on the property and put everybody out of work. That's the way to solidarity.

 

[Mr. Pebbles]

From CLOSE friends I have personally witnessed: One divorce (3 children involved), One bankruptcy (two children involved), One suicide (two children involved) I have personally been laid off twice as a non-flying pilot in management positions (two children involved). That won't happen any longer, because I refuse to work for a union carrier which GUARANTEES me my job security. BTW, the divorce and bankruptcy were pilots with over 5 years of seniority that were on the lower third of the seniority list while the union protected the top two thirds. All as a direct result of union activity that would have never happened if the carrier was non-union. I've seen more furloughs and layoffs of both flying and non-flying employees because of union activity than I ever have in a non-union carrier. So, if you want to know why there is a clear disdain for unions, over twenty years of experience as a flying pilot and in management tells me that it's not the way to go. I'm no longer in management and I'm not with Avantair but I have friends there and I always say, be careful what you ask for. I could never make the money I make now with a union carrier because the resources would not be there because they would be sucked up by the union.
And for those others that think that I "Don't get it?" Go to a friend's funeral sometime because he got laid off as a direct result of a union activity and couldn't pay his bills. See if you walk away with the same opinion after. Be careful what you ask for. I don't believe if a union gets it's grips on Avantair that the carrier can survive. It's too young and the financials just aren't there. Bring a union on the property and put everybody out of work. That's the way to solidarity.

Haven't you figured out that everyone knows who you are and are laughing at you? " I'm not with Avantair, but I have friends there." That's your quote. We know it's a lie. What you should do is go into your office in St. Pete, close the door, and figure out how to keep your pilots, and in turn keep your company from going bankrupt. Instead, you come on here, and pretend to be someone else, and make a bigger a$$ out of yourself than you already are. Wherever people see you, they shake your hand, and act like you are their friend, but they're thinking "What a tool."

 

[Diesel]

hmmmmm talk about FUD.

Join a union and you're going to end up putting a bullet in your mouth.

Really? Do people actually believe this stuff?

 

[DO-82 driver]

B19 just illustrates how desperate their management truely is.

 

[Bruno06]

Wait a minute, what do you mean if Avantair wants to retain any respect from their pilots? How about the tiny group of pilots that are vocally asking for the union respecting what Avantair has done for them? The threat of a union is perhaps the greatest way to earn disrespect from management in any company. Is the pay not good enough? Is the schedule not good enough? Not enough reward points from hotels and flights? Not enough per diem? Should management ignore privacy concerns every time a pilot is disciplined to avoid the beginning of a rumor mill? Yep, that's the answer, public hanging. I forgot, when the union agrees with the company and a pilot is fired they are the utmost of integrity so it's OK and the entire union membership agrees and rumors never happen. (Oops, sillly me) Or is it that certain pilots think that they can run the company better than them? If so, then they should step up to the plate and make efforts to become involved rather than hide behind the skirts of a union. A union is never the answer, and to echo what I've said before, be careful what you ask for!

Quite laughable, it seems everyone can see through your feeble attempts to disguise your identity.
You seem to miss the whole point, the reason more and more pilots are talking about a union has nothing to do with per-diem or Hilton points. It's about job security, having a union provides some backing, especially in a situation when the Avantair Kangaroo court is in action.
You seem to think being a pilot at Avantair is a piece of cake, let me educate you a little.......working 7 long days (many 14 hours) with impossible 30 minute turn arounds, expected to be grateful for a fu*king Subway sandwhich after 2 hours of negotiation, flight planning and receiving several calls during your 10 hours rest, having to deal with the pressure phone calls when you have a legitimate reason why a flight could not or should not be done, etc, etc.... With the cut backs not so many Hilton points any more, do the Best Western or La Quinta have honors reward cards???
Avantair pilots earn every penny they receive.
It's not up to the pilots to run the company, however when they work for a company who repeatedly show incompetence, dishonesty and a lack of integrity they feel backed into a corner. A union gives the workers a voice, at the moment having a voice leads to as you call it being 'disciplined'....I call it being fired!
You mentioned privacy, I think you meant to say cover-up.
Focus on the problem here, pilots are looking for jobs elsewhere, in fact I don't know any who see themselves staying with Avantair long term.

 

[Bruno06]

From CLOSE friends I have personally witnessed: One divorce (3 children involved), One bankruptcy (two children involved), One suicide (two children involved) I have personally been laid off twice as a non-flying pilot in management positions (two children involved). That won't happen any longer, because I refuse to work for a union carrier which GUARANTEES me my job security. BTW, the divorce and bankruptcy were pilots with over 5 years of seniority that were on the lower third of the seniority list while the union protected the top two thirds. All as a direct result of union activity that would have never happened if the carrier was non-union. I've seen more furloughs and layoffs of both flying and non-flying employees because of union activity than I ever have in a non-union carrier. So, if you want to know why there is a clear disdain for unions, over twenty years of experience as a flying pilot and in management tells me that it's not the way to go. I'm no longer in management and I'm not with Avantair but I have friends there and I always say, be careful what you ask for. I could never make the money I make now with a union carrier because the resources would not be there because they would be sucked up by the union.
And for those others that think that I "Don't get it?" Go to a friend's funeral sometime because he got laid off as a direct result of a union activity and couldn't pay his bills. See if you walk away with the same opinion after. Be careful what you ask for. I don't believe if a union gets it's grips on Avantair that the carrier can survive. It's too young and the financials just aren't there. Bring a union on the property and put everybody out of work. That's the way to solidarity.

Well, I almost believe you actually care. Lets talk about recent terminations at Avantair. The two guys who lost their jobs all before the NTSB and FAA completed any reports......don't they have families, mortgages and bills? Before them were several others who spoke up or voiced a concern, or just didn't fit in, all are gone......don't they have families, mortgages and bills?
Unions were not the cause for these terminations, but they may have been able to give these pilots a fair chance. Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it......support, backing, an opinion, a voice, fairness, security, legal representation.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Quite laughable, it seems everyone can see through your feeble attempts to disguise your identity.
You seem to miss the whole point, the reason more and more pilots are talking about a union has nothing to do with per-diem or Hilton points. It's about job security, having a union provides some backing, especially in a situation when the Avantair Kangaroo court is in action.
You seem to think being a pilot at Avantair is a piece of cake, let me educate you a little.......working 7 long days (many 14 hours) with impossible 30 minute turn arounds, expected to be grateful for a fu*king Subway sandwhich after 2 hours of negotiation, flight planning and receiving several calls during your 10 hours rest, having to deal with the pressure phone calls when you have a legitimate reason why a flight could not or should not be done, etc, etc.... With the cut backs not so many Hilton points any more, do the Best Western or La Quinta have honors reward cards???
Avantair pilots earn every penny they receive.
It's not up to the pilots to run the company, however when they work for a company who repeatedly show incompetence, dishonesty and a lack of integrity they feel backed into a corner. A union gives the workers a voice, at the moment having a voice leads to as you call it being 'disciplined'....I call it being fired!
You mentioned privacy, I think you meant to say cover-up.
Focus on the problem here, pilots are looking for jobs elsewhere, in fact I don't know any who see themselves staying with Avantair long term.

None of my friends that work there view it as you do. They all view it as a work in progress and accept the shortcomings because they like the fractional world. If you don't like it, find a job where you have the perfect circumstances. It appears to me that you should be working at a union carrier. I'm curious, rather than forcing your likes/dislikes on others by forcing them to accept a union, why don't you just find yourself a job flying for a carrier that already has a union? That's one of the things that has always confused me. I didn't like working for union carriers because my job was always at risk due to union activity. So I changed jobs to a well run non-union carrier. I gave the union carriers a try and found that the best route for me was to take my own career into my own hands and fine a job that matched MY lifestyle. I couldn't be happier, no risk of layoffs due to union activity and I make the best money in my career. I even managed to do that in a non-management position. If it's so hard working there, it would seem to me that it would be much easier for you to find a union job rather than go through the 3 years plus process to put a union on the property and fight for the first contract. Then, once all that is done, if the carrier fails (like so many before because of union activity), you will be looking for work anyway. Just take the shortcut, and fly for somebody that already has those so-called "protections" in place.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Haven't you figured out that everyone knows who you are and are laughing at you? " I'm not with Avantair, but I have friends there." That's your quote. We know it's a lie. What you should do is go into your office in St. Pete, close the door, and figure out how to keep your pilots, and in turn keep your company from going bankrupt. Instead, you come on here, and pretend to be someone else, and make a bigger a$$ out of yourself than you already are. Wherever people see you, they shake your hand, and act like you are their friend, but they're thinking "What a tool."

I don't work for Avantair. I did have very close ties once upon a time and that is what created the friendships I have there. I rarely post unless I see things that are so one-sided that somebody has to speak up. This is one of those things. It's traditional that internal management doesn't speak up on these things but considering I don't work there I can be vocal. As far as the guy you refer to above? The company wouldn't exist without him, and if he cashed in his chips today and walked away, the company wouldn't last without him.

 

[Diesel]

well b19 is the next familyguy.

Gotta love it.

 

[oneeye_169]

I don't work for Avantair. I did have very close ties once upon a time and that is what created the friendships I have there. I rarely post unless I see things that are so one-sided that somebody has to speak up. This is one of those things. It's traditional that internal management doesn't speak up on these things but considering I don't work there I can be vocal. As far as the guy you refer to above? The company wouldn't exist without him, and if he cashed in his chips today and walked away, the company wouldn't last without him.

I know at least 10 people who were fired from union carriers. Every single one of them got their job back. i doubt the people fired at avantair are going to get their jobs back. what you imply is that a union negotiates a company into bankruptcy.... and you look like an indiot doing it. i know unions who took pay cuts to help their companies survive. the difference is, a union allows the pilots a true voice. A company just can't force ridiculous policies, pay cuts, work rules, etc. As for as swicthing jobs to a union carrier...F*ck you. why? i never came here looking to start a union. if mgmt considered their pilots when making the decisions that affect pilots...then maybe we wouldn't need one. However they don't, and we need a union. i'm not throwing away the time i invested because some of the people in charge lack the ability to properly lead. i will try to protect myself from those people. i'm just as much a part of avantair as anybody else who works here. i shouldn't have to leave because i think it is unfair to take it up the A**, no lube, and a union would stop that.

one other thing b-19, where are your so called friends that work here. how come they aren't writing anything on here? are they afraid to lose their jobs if they post? Apparently, as you say, you don't work here. so mind your own business, and stop trying to justify your posts by stating you are posting in favor of your fictious friends that work here. we all know someone like you cares only about himself. so instead of bothering all the REAL employees at avantair with your idiotic posts....go do what someone like you would normally do.......probably rob a blind man selling pencils or rip off some charity organization. something else selfish and heartless i'm sure.

 

[oneeye_169]

i also don't think avantair realizes there is a pilot shortage in the industry. who is going to come to a company that has little to offer. come to avantair.... 14 hour duty days, never get home on time, be treated like you have never flown, and then get fired when the company needs a lamb for sacrifice. good quality pilots are not going to come here when this is the crap that happens. there are too many jobs opening up. i don't think even the low quality pilots will come here. i hope avantair figures out some way to sell themselves to pilots instead of what they are selling now. either way, i don't think i should have to pick up the slack because certain mgmt is lacking. therefore, contrary to b-19's opinion, who doesn't work here of course, WE NEED A UNION!

 

[Bruno06]

I don't work for Avantair. I did have very close ties once upon a time and that is what created the friendships I have there. I rarely post unless I see things that are so one-sided that somebody has to speak up. This is one of those things. It's traditional that internal management doesn't speak up on these things but considering I don't work there I can be vocal. As far as the guy you refer to above? The company wouldn't exist without him, and if he cashed in his chips today and walked away, the company wouldn't last without him.

B-19, there's always people with more chips at the table, maybe now is the time for you to cash yours in!
If there was ever a time you really proved you are Avantair management it's in these last few quotes. "If you don't like it leave" is Avantair management attitude all over......why don't you listen to some of these ligitimate concerns and make changes for the better. It's not a small minority of pilots talking about a union. It's the majority! If you speak with the pilots you'd know that, but then again they probably woundn't discuss it with you for fear of getting fired!
Employees with real concerns regarding job retention with union backing are the incompetent managers who would be held accountable for their unreasonable actions.
Due to the present climate at Avantair, I don't see anyone backing your view. It's time for a union.

 

[glasspilot]

I've stayed out and watched this for awhile now. No one asked for my opinion but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in anyway.

My background includes part 121 with a very strong union that enjoyed good working relationship with the company and a part 121 that had just voted in a union (teamsters) and the company and pilot group fought about everything. So my only experience in bringing a union on property is from the later.

1st, I was not that impressed with the teamsters. Every time I went to a "union meeting" held down at the local chapter I was reminded that this is a trucker union. Right down to the design of the room. Built like an imperial throne with the teamster leader on top, looking down on the officers, looking down on the representatives, looking down on the union body. (Just seemed to be a lot of people there looking down at me.) Clearly it was all designed to intimidate and bestow some sort of prestige on the ranking members of the teamsters. Then came the language. An official meeting to the members and it was, "F'ing this, and F'ing that, and we'll show those M'F'ers and G D them anyway". Again, total trucker union. I'd imagine NetJet pilots can even attest to the trucker magazines that the teamsters send them. (I've heard that from a couple of sources)

Anyway, back to bringing a union on property. It was the worst experience I've ever had. To be fair the Company was the worst I'd ever seen to start with, so I'm not sure how much I can blame on the whole "new union" thing...but it was ugly. Management would screw with pilots at every turn. Pay was messed up. Schedules were messed up. Insurance was messed up. Policies came out to just screw with pilots heads. I couldn't wait to leave. The union has been voted in now for over 3 years and to this day they STILL do not have a contract. The beatings continue.

Coming from that background I have to say Avantair is not all that bad. Could it be better? Sure. When I was hired I was told it was a work in progress. And I have to report that I've seen progress.

The pilots getting fired? Well, I do think it could have been handled better. The FO's can't fly response? Again, bit of a knee jerk but there has been progress in that area too.

I try not to guzzle the Kool-Aid and look at things as fair as I can. For me I'm happy with the progress that's taking place without a union. I'd be cautious of saddling a company this young with a union. It's like starting a fire. At first you have to protect the embers. Blow on it gently and be ginger until there's a blaze. If after a year or two we'll know if we have a blaze or not. We'll see how the relationship between company and pilots is. The last thing I'd want is to jump back into the abyss that is a new union on property. No one wins at that and, for me, we're not there yet.

Fly Safe

 

[Flybet3]

I've stayed out and watched this for awhile now. No one asked for my opinion but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in anyway.

My background includes part 121 with a very strong union that enjoyed good working relationship with the company and a part 121 that had just voted in a union (teamsters) and the company and pilot group fought about everything. So my only experience in bringing a union on property is from the later.

1st, I was not that impressed with the teamsters. Every time I went to a "union meeting" held down at the local chapter I was reminded that this is a trucker union. Right down to the design of the room. Built like an imperial throne with the teamster leader on top, looking down on the officers, looking down on the representatives, looking down on the union body. (Just seemed to be a lot of people there looking down at me.) Clearly it was all designed to intimidate and bestow some sort of prestige on the ranking members of the teamsters. Then came the language. An official meeting to the members and it was, "F'ing this, and F'ing that, and we'll show those M'F'ers and G D them anyway". Again, total trucker union. I'd imagine NetJet pilots can even attest to the trucker magazines that the teamsters send them. (I've heard that from a couple of sources)

Anyway, back to bringing a union on property. It was the worst experience I've ever had. To be fair the Company was the worst I'd ever seen to start with, so I'm not sure how much I can blame on the whole "new union" thing...but it was ugly. Management would screw with pilots at every turn. Pay was messed up. Schedules were messed up. Insurance was messed up. Policies came out to just screw with pilots heads. I couldn't wait to leave. The union has been voted in now for over 3 years and to this day they STILL do not have a contract. The beatings continue.

Coming from that background I have to say Avantair is not all that bad. Could it be better? Sure. When I was hired I was told it was a work in progress. And I have to report that I've seen progress.

The pilots getting fired? Well, I do think it could have been handled better. The FO's can't fly response? Again, bit of a knee jerk but there has been progress in that area too.

I try not to guzzle the Kool-Aid and look at things as fair as I can. For me I'm happy with the progress that's taking place without a union. I'd be cautious of saddling a company this young with a union. It's like starting a fire. At first you have to protect the embers. Blow on it gently and be ginger until there's a blaze. If after a year or two we'll know if we have a blaze or not. We'll see how the relationship between company and pilots is. The last thing I'd want is to jump back into the abyss that is a new union on property. No one wins at that and, for me, we're not there yet.

Fly Safe

Uh oh, I can't wait to see the response to this one. Nice knowing ya