avantair.......union? Is it time.....again?

[Bugsmasher Plus]

I've stayed out and watched this for awhile now. No one asked for my opinion but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in anyway.

My background includes part 121 with a very strong union that enjoyed good working relationship with the company and a part 121 that had just voted in a union (teamsters) and the company and pilot group fought about everything. So my only experience in bringing a union on property is from the later.

1st, I was not that impressed with the teamsters. Every time I went to a "union meeting" held down at the local chapter I was reminded that this is a trucker union. Right down to the design of the room. Built like an imperial throne with the teamster leader on top, looking down on the officers, looking down on the representatives, looking down on the union body. (Just seemed to be a lot of people there looking down at me.) Clearly it was all designed to intimidate and bestow some sort of prestige on the ranking members of the teamsters. Then came the language. An official meeting to the members and it was, "F'ing this, and F'ing that, and we'll show those M'F'ers and G D them anyway". Again, total trucker union. I'd imagine NetJet pilots can even attest to the trucker magazines that the teamsters send them. (I've heard that from a couple of sources)

Anyway, back to bringing a union on property. It was the worst experience I've ever had. To be fair the Company was the worst I'd ever seen to start with, so I'm not sure how much I can blame on the whole "new union" thing...but it was ugly. Management would screw with pilots at every turn. Pay was messed up. Schedules were messed up. Insurance was messed up. Policies came out to just screw with pilots heads. I couldn't wait to leave. The union has been voted in now for over 3 years and to this day they STILL do not have a contract. The beatings continue.

Coming from that background I have to say Avantair is not all that bad. Could it be better? Sure. When I was hired I was told it was a work in progress. And I have to report that I've seen progress.

The pilots getting fired? Well, I do think it could have been handled better. The FO's can't fly response? Again, bit of a knee jerk but there has been progress in that area too.

I try not to guzzle the Kool-Aid and look at things as fair as I can. For me I'm happy with the progress that's taking place without a union. I'd be cautious of saddling a company this young with a union. It's like starting a fire. At first you have to protect the embers. Blow on it gently and be ginger until there's a blaze. If after a year or two we'll know if we have a blaze or not. We'll see how the relationship between company and pilots is. The last thing I'd want is to jump back into the abyss that is a new union on property. No one wins at that and, for me, we're not there yet.

Fly Safe

** good post**

 

[grandma]

I've stayed out and watched this for awhile now. No one asked for my opinion but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in anyway.

My background includes part 121 with a very strong union that enjoyed good working relationship with the company and a part 121 that had just voted in a union (teamsters) and the company and pilot group fought about everything. So my only experience in bringing a union on property is from the later.

1st, I was not that impressed with the teamsters. Every time I went to a "union meeting" held down at the local chapter I was reminded that this is a trucker union. Right down to the design of the room. Built like an imperial throne with the teamster leader on top, looking down on the officers, looking down on the representatives, looking down on the union body. (Just seemed to be a lot of people there looking down at me.) Clearly it was all designed to intimidate and bestow some sort of prestige on the ranking members of the teamsters. Then came the language. An official meeting to the members and it was, "F'ing this, and F'ing that, and we'll show those M'F'ers and G D them anyway". Again, total trucker union. I'd imagine NetJet pilots can even attest to the trucker magazines that the teamsters send them. (I've heard that from a couple of sources)

Anyway, back to bringing a union on property. It was the worst experience I've ever had. To be fair the Company was the worst I'd ever seen to start with, so I'm not sure how much I can blame on the whole "new union" thing...but it was ugly. Management would screw with pilots at every turn. Pay was messed up. Schedules were messed up. Insurance was messed up. Policies came out to just screw with pilots heads. I couldn't wait to leave. The union has been voted in now for over 3 years and to this day they STILL do not have a contract. The beatings continue.

Coming from that background I have to say Avantair is not all that bad. Could it be better? Sure. When I was hired I was told it was a work in progress. And I have to report that I've seen progress.

The pilots getting fired? Well, I do think it could have been handled better. The FO's can't fly response? Again, bit of a knee jerk but there has been progress in that area too.

I try not to guzzle the Kool-Aid and look at things as fair as I can. For me I'm happy with the progress that's taking place without a union. I'd be cautious of saddling a company this young with a union. It's like starting a fire. At first you have to protect the embers. Blow on it gently and be ginger until there's a blaze. If after a year or two we'll know if we have a blaze or not. We'll see how the relationship between company and pilots is. The last thing I'd want is to jump back into the abyss that is a new union on property. No one wins at that and, for me, we're not there yet.

Fly Safe

Insightful and well articulated. I too back this young company 100% and would like to see it grow, be strong and flourish.

It's sad to see every flightinfo post turn into a monument to childishness and naked emotion. I cringe at each new insult thrown and angry taunt so casually spoken. I wonder what effect each vomitous comment will have on the lifestyle of my family. My kids. This company.

Why are these people so negative? Have they ever had to work, I mean really work, for something in life?

I think it's time for the positive people to have a voice.

 

[gunfyter]

Granny went to AvantAir?

 

[DO-82 driver]

...yeah, with a Sombrero!!!!!

 

[Diesel]

Granny you still owe me for a hotel stay.

You really gotta love this FUD. We'll be bankrupt, you'll ruin the company, the pilots are costing us money, we're taking creamers out of the break room to save money to pay the pilots, we'd love to hire more but the pilots are costing us money.

Oh yeah we had another record quarter. Guess the company is really having a hard time living with our contract. Ha

 

[Ultra Grump]

Glasspilot - Yes, overall the Teamsters is a trucker's union. But the people in your local union hall were pilots. If those people were less than stellar, it had nothing to do with whether or not the Teamsters is full of truckers. Those people were apparently dirtbags long before the Teamsters got involved. If Avantair unionizes under Local 1108, you can rest assured that the 1108 leadership is not a bunch of foul-mouthed truckers. They have the best interests of fractional pilots at heart, and work their collective asses off making things better for our (and your) pilot group.

 

[B19 Flyer]

They have the best interests of fractional pilots at heart, and work their collective asses off making things better for our (and your) pilot group.

Key words here.. They have the best interests of the pilots at heart, not the schedulers, not the mechanics, not the parts department, not the customer service people and certainly not Avantair as a whole. As long as they collect their dues, they will support the pilots right up until the doors are locked or the quality of life for the rest of the company is squeezed to the point the company can no longer function. Not true you say? Ask all of those non-union support employees that have been laid off by American, United, Delta, Northwest and an endless list of others. Why don't we also bring up all of the furloughed pilots for those companies and their vanished or greatly reduced pension plans. If the unions were truly for job security, they would take the available pilot budget and spread it evenly amongst all to save everybodies job when the times are tough. Instead, they will protect the top 2/3 and sacrifice the bottom third. I've seen it over and over. (Let's not mention Eastern, that is way too painful). Avantair needs to grow and flourish. be careful what you ask for.

 

[gunfyter]

take the available pilot budget and spread it evenly amongst all to save everybodies job when the times are tough
​

Are you a communist?

And by the way, I hope you have CANPASS:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/200705...nse_contractor_subsidiary_of_threatening_good

Look what can happen if you don't.

 

[Diesel]

Why would the union want the company to close its doors? It doesn't it wants the company to prosper so that it can continue to pay the pilots wages and tied in with that union dues. Which I've made more on OT than I will pay in the next 10 years but I digress.

Here is the simple answer. NJ cried and cried that the pilot contract would bankrupt them. Hmmmm record profits? So maybe a happy pilot workforce that is well compensated under one voice of a union could actually turn out more economical for avantair.

Of course the non union support employee doesn't want a union. Just like management doesn't want to have to deal with a collective voice that says, enough is enough.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Insightful and well articulated. I too back this young company 100% and would like to see it grow, be strong and flourish.

It's sad to see every flightinfo post turn into a monument to childishness and naked emotion. I cringe at each new insult thrown and angry taunt so casually spoken. I wonder what effect each vomitous comment will have on the lifestyle of my family. My kids. This company.

Why are these people so negative? Have they ever had to work, I mean really work, for something in life?

I think it's time for the positive people to have a voice.

I've known Avantair since nearly the beginning, and it really bothers me that a small group of pilots think that a union is the answer. I wish the "silent majority" would chime in a little more and the vocal ones would step up to the plate and help the staff there rather than fight them and make union threats that do no more than incite ill will. The post you support here was very well articulated and I'm hoping that more folks will talk about all the good stuff and opportunities that have happened at Avantair rather than focus on the bad stuff. Thank you for putting your 2 cents in.

 

[B19 Flyer]

take the available pilot budget and spread it evenly amongst all to save everybodies job when the times are tough​

Are you a communist?

.

(to finish the sentence above) Let me clarify. So, you are saying that it's OK to sacrifice the bottom 1/3 of your fellow pilots rather than keeping them all working? It doesn't make any difference on how you spread the wealth, through work rules, benefit changes or payroll, the bottom line is the union will sacrifice jobs of it's own people before taking concessions to protect member jobs.

 

[gunfyter]

Your premise is nonsensical.

You have X number of airplanes ... you need X*Y number of pilots.

Otherwise you sell off your trips which costs MUCHO Dinero more than company pilots.

If you have more than X*Y number of pilots ... you have too many pilots.

Now you would have 2/3 of the pilots take paycuts to keep 1/3 on the payroll who are not needed by the company to fly planes?

This is communism.

 

[angryoneincher]

I've known Avantair since nearly the beginning, and it really bothers me that a small group of pilots think that a union is the answer. I wish the "silent majority" would chime in a little more and the vocal ones would step up to the plate and help the staff there rather than fight them and make union threats that do no more than incite ill will. The post you support here was very well articulated and I'm hoping that more folks will talk about all the good stuff and opportunities that have happened at Avantair rather than focus on the bad stuff. Thank you for putting your 2 cents in.

God, B19, you're still at it. You're so lame. Who's the core group of guys following you around by now?

 

[Noodles]

(to finish the sentence above) Let me clarify. So, you are saying that it's OK to sacrifice the bottom 1/3 of your fellow pilots rather than keeping them all working? It doesn't make any difference on how you spread the wealth, through work rules, benefit changes or payroll, the bottom line is the union will sacrifice jobs of it's own people before taking concessions to protect member jobs.

It's not okay for a union to sacrifice pilots for the whole group, but it's okay for management to sacrifice pilots for management as a group? I don't understand your thinking on this.

Let's compare the number of companies that have gone out of business due to the pilot union compared to the number of companies that have gone out of business due to the management. I think we all know which side here causes more companies to shut their doors (and it's not the union).

On a side note, I know one of the pilots that works for Allegiant that landed without the nose gear in March. You think they fired those guys? They don't have a union, but their company bent over backwards to help and support them. If you want loyalty and respect from your work group, you have to give it first. That is one thing Avantair management has always been short on.

You can't manage thru fear and intimidation.

 

[oneeye_169]

Key words here.. They have the best interests of the pilots at heart, not the schedulers, not the mechanics, not the parts department, not the customer service people and certainly not Avantair as a whole. As long as they collect their dues, they will support the pilots right up until the doors are locked or the quality of life for the rest of the company is squeezed to the point the company can no longer function. Not true you say? Ask all of those non-union support employees that have been laid off by American, United, Delta, Northwest and an endless list of others. Why don't we also bring up all of the furloughed pilots for those companies and their vanished or greatly reduced pension plans. If the unions were truly for job security, they would take the available pilot budget and spread it evenly amongst all to save everybodies job when the times are tough. Instead, they will protect the top 2/3 and sacrifice the bottom third. I've seen it over and over. (Let's not mention Eastern, that is way too painful). Avantair needs to grow and flourish. be careful what you ask for.

first off, if those groups of employees are unhappy.....then they should unionize too. do you think pilots are the only employees at air carriers with unions? FA's, Dispatchers, mechanics....
and just for your imformation, Northwest fired their mechanics and replaced them. tricked FA's into training their replacements on china routes by telling them they were training for a chinese airline. Mesaba..."we're bankrupt"...court throws out contract...mgmt wanted a starting pay of about $10000 for pilots. Where is mgmt looking out for the bottom 1/3. oh yeah, they don't care. once again, you don't work here. the company isn't the small company it once was. everybody, doesn't know everybody. sorry, it happens when companies grow. go fly for ma and pa air if you want to hang on to small company closeness crap. thats going away quickly at avantair and it is becoming a national known business. if the majority wants a union, then what do you care. it doesn't affect you in any way. So too bad!

I still haven't heard from your so called friends...

 

[Bruno06]

Insightful and well articulated. I too back this young company 100% and would like to see it grow, be strong and flourish.

It's sad to see every flightinfo post turn into a monument to childishness and naked emotion. I cringe at each new insult thrown and angry taunt so casually spoken. I wonder what effect each vomitous comment will have on the lifestyle of my family. My kids. This company.

Why are these people so negative? Have they ever had to work, I mean really work, for something in life?

I think it's time for the positive people to have a voice.

This has to be the most patronizing post I have seen. So pilots who have complaints or concerns with Avantair haven't had to work hard to get where they are?
Avantair was a good place to work, maybe 2 years ago, management seemed to genuinely care about it's employees, however as new management have joined the company there have been many changes. Money, profit and cut backs seem to be their only concern.
The purpose of flightinfo is for everyone to voice their opinions, whether they be positive or negative, to provoke discussions and respond to annoying posts like yours.
Maybe you shouldn't read flightinfo if it upsets you so much. What makes me cringe is when I see pilots treated unfairly and hear management justify it......there's nothing casual about that!
I'm sure all Avantair's pilots are concerned about their families and lifestyles since they see how management have responded to certain situations. I don't know how a "vomitus comment" can effect your family. Would you prefer this thread turn into a mutual admiration society and keep up the "insightful and well articulated" pats on the back comments?

 

[netjetwife]

While I am appalled at the latest turn of events at Avantair, I am not surprised that it has come to this. Working without a contract is risky and leaves the pilots in such a vulnerable situation that it can invite management to take advantage of them. In essence, a contract is really just a set of rules that both sides follow to keep things fair. While those spouting FUD would like Avantair pilots to think of unions as greedy and heartless the truth is that "the union" is actually the workforce given legal standing (read clout)to hold management to the agreed upon rules should they forget/overlook them. Apparently Avantair management would like to operate without such restrictions (one must note the latest example of that ) and will discourage the pilots from listening to anyone but them...

A few years ago NJA pilots complained openly because pay was so bad, but that wasn't their only complaint. Morale was also low because they were treated with a lack of respect and there wasn't enough fair work rules. That should sound familiar to the Avantair pilots. The greatly improved situation at NJA today shows what a huge difference a fair contract can make. In spite of the fear-inducing posts (whose motivation is easy to see) the reality is that most pilots in the frac industry choose to work under a written contract that offers them job security and a voice in their career.

I strongly encourage the Avantair pilots to ignore the doom and gloom from the anti-union posters here and analyze the situation objectively. To help you balance the FUD with accurate information I want to let you know that 1108 and NJA management are getting better all the time at working together to find fair solutions to problems and ways to improve the company for all involved. (I have a "front row seat" because of my husband's union involvement.) It’s easy to see that much more can be accomplished when both sides meet in the middle. Effective managers are willing to do that instead of blaming problems on the pilots and balancing the budget on the backs of their workforce. A written contract just makes sure they do their job while paying you fairly and treating you right as you do yours. From the sounds of it, that is something badly needed at Avantair--again, sad but not surprising. Good luck on your efforts to improve your working conditions. NJW


WRITTEN CONTRACTS ARE COMMONPLACE FOR MANAGEMENT AND PROFESSIONAL PILOTS DESERVE THE SAME

 

[fischman]

www.ibt1108.org

We are the only group that truly cares about you and your family. Management, FAA, NTSB will look for blame when the sh$t hits the fan. Where are they going to look?

Knock on wood, but if I ever have an incident my first call with be to NetJets to let them know what has happened (as required). I'll tell them there was an incident and I will divulge nothing more without my union representation. Then I will call the union. They are the only ones who have MY interests at heart.

I don't buy the crap that unions will bankrupt a company. Management knows what they are getting in to when they sign a contract. If not, they are incompetent and should not be in management anyway.

I don't buy the crap that unions only care about the top 2/3 of the seniority list. Why does the union come to talk to the new-hires? Why is there a new-hire mentor program?

I don't buy the crap that the union is only in business to collect dues. Those dues are there to protect me through legal fees, administrative costs, etc. and is worth EVERY nickel I spend on it.

Don't get me wrong. I love working for NetJets. It is an exciting time to be here with all the growth. The flying is 1/5 as stressful as working for a 121 carrier. But IBT 1108 has done more for my family than any other group in my life and I am truly thankful for all of the volunteers and members.

 

[fs77]

NJW and fischman, well said!

 

[B19 Flyer]

We are the only group that truly cares about you and your family. Management, FAA, NTSB will look for blame when the sh$t hits the fan. Where are they going to look?

Knock on wood, but if I ever have an incident my first call with be to NetJets to let them know what has happened (as required). I'll tell them there was an incident and I will divulge nothing more without my union representation. Then I will call the union. They are the only ones who have MY interests at heart.

I don't buy the crap that unions will bankrupt a company. Management knows what they are getting in to when they sign a contract. If not, they are incompetent and should not be in management anyway.

I don't buy the crap that unions only care about the top 2/3 of the seniority list. Why does the union come to talk to the new-hires? Why is there a new-hire mentor program?

I don't buy the crap that the union is only in business to collect dues. Those dues are there to protect me through legal fees, administrative costs, etc. and is worth EVERY nickel I spend on it.

Don't get me wrong. I love working for NetJets. It is an exciting time to be here with all the growth. The flying is 1/5 as stressful as working for a 121 carrier. But IBT 1108 has done more for my family than any other group in my life and I am truly thankful for all of the volunteers and members.

Dr. Ian Malcolm (The Lost World: Jurassic Park): Oh, yeah. Oooh, ahhh, that's how it always starts. Then later there's running and screaming.