avantair.......union? Is it time.....again?

[B19 Flyer]

You would call the color blue, red B19. I don't buy a dam thing that because of the union agreements those carriers suffered massive losses. Bullsh!t

Yeah, I know... the articles are SO misleading. It's obvious that I'm making all this stuff up. Must be sheer coincidence that the large contracts were signed and the same managment that gave record profits for five years just all of a sudden forgot how to manage and it turned into massive losses. Full circle on this, is that unions didn't care about the massive losses. They were going to squeeze the golden goose and in the end, all of them were in bankruptcy. Slow reaction by the unions caused massive layoffs of pilots and support workers. (including me) You might love your union, but it doesn't love you. Even NJW admits that the union she has now is better than the one at AA. That will be right up until her husband is laid off again, then it will once again be managements fault.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-76617259.html

Delta Air Lines Downturn Reflects Rough Skies for Airline Industry.

From:
Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News
Date:
July 19, 2001

By Nancy Fonti, The Atlanta Journal and Constitution Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News
Jul. 19--When Delta Air Lines reports a large second-quarter loss today it will confirm that the good times have quit rolling for Atlanta's biggest corporate employer.
After a five-year run of big profits, the airline and its retooled management team now face a tougher financial environment. There's no sign yet the downturn will be as long or painful as the grinding slump of the early '90s, but it's forcing belt-tightening including a hiring freeze, route changes and sweeping fare ...


http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-78056343.html


Second worst.(US airline industry reports $2.5 bn profit decline)(Statistical Data Included)

From:
Air Transport World
Date:
September 1, 2001

US airline industry suffers a $2.5 billion negative profit swing in the three months to June 30
Bigger definitely wasn't better in the second quarter as far as the US airline industry was concerned. None of the Big Three carriers and only one of the six largest in revenues--Continental--managed a profit for the period. The other three that made money were No. 7 Southwest Airlines, Alaska Air Group and AmTran, parents of the ninth and tenth biggest Majors respectively. They also happen to be airlines that are far less reliant on free-spending corporations for their revenues.

 

[pilotpat]

You're beginning to sound like the teacher in Peanuts, now. It'd just be great if you went back to your desk and twiddled your thumbs a bit.

No matter how many articles you post...no matter how many times you post your mantra...I don't buy it. Why has my wife's school not gone under? Teachers just got a huge raise 3 years ago. Guess what? More students will graduate Saturday than ever and student population will be up next school year. Yup. All unions are bad, bad, bad.

 

[fischman]

Yeah, I know... the articles are SO misleading. It's obvious that I'm making all this stuff up. Must be sheer coincidence that the large contracts were signed and the same managment that gave record profits for five years just all of a sudden forgot how to manage and it turned into massive losses. Full circle on this, is that unions didn't care about the massive losses. They were going to squeeze the golden goose and in the end, all of them were in bankruptcy. Slow reaction by the unions caused massive layoffs of pilots and support workers. (including me) You might love your union, but it doesn't love you. Even NJW admits that the union she has now is better than the one at AA. That will be right up until her husband is laid off again, then it will once again be managements fault.

Just because you type it doesn't make it true.

You blame unions, the majority of everyone else (including me) blames poor management.

I am a member in good standing with 2 unions.

#1) APLA. My carrier went tail up due to management (Independence Air). I promise you it wasn't the salary or work rules of the union (very low pay). Actually labor and management had a great relationship. It wasn't uncommon to see the President (Tom Moore) walking through the crew room asking if there was anything the crews need. Asking if there was anything he could do to make our jobs easier. The bottom line is that it proved to be a bad business model and to boot, it was mis-managed.

#2) Teamsters. Don't get me wrong, I truly believe that my job at NetJets is the best flying job I have ever had. The pay is almost fair, the flying is exciting, and the company is making money. However, I file more grievances in one week than I did my entire career at the airline. The only reason NetJets does as well as it does is the professionalism of the union pilots. They are willing to do anything to get the mission done, including violations of the contract.

 

[fischman]

The dirt bag start up was one of the legacy carriers mentioned in the article. Most people don't recall it because the events of 9/11 overshadowed what was already happening. Oh, and I didn't fly for the carrier, let's not make that mistake or give anybody that is reading this thread that impression. I was in management there. I haven't flown in years and years and years. I just think that people have a real short memory when it comes to this union stuff and I don't mind reminding them about it or how I worked around it to protect myself from it. None of the legacy carriers were in trouble until they all signed industy leading contracts within a year of each other.

I would never have guessed.

 

[fischman]

The dirt bag start up was one of the legacy carriers mentioned in the article. Most people don't recall it because the events of 9/11 overshadowed what was already happening. Oh, and I didn't fly for the carrier, let's not make that mistake or give anybody that is reading this thread that impression. I was in management there. I haven't flown in years and years and years. I just think that people have a real short memory when it comes to this union stuff and I don't mind reminding them about it or how I worked around it to protect myself from it. None of the legacy carriers were in trouble until they all signed industy leading contracts within a year of each other.

Maybe it is time to come to the line again and remember what it is like in the real world?

 

[Guitar Guy]

In government it is a democracy. In private enterprise, it's an unfriendly takeover.

Not to the 67% (in your example) that wanted representation.

And there was no "takeover" of the company. It was merely 67% (or a majority) of the pilots who felt that their collective interests were best serve by a union as is their right under the laws in our democracy.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Maybe it is time to come to the line again and remember what it is like in the real world?

Which part of the real world would you like me to remember? The part where I was laid off twice because of union actions or the one where I make more money and feel more secure than I've ever been by working for non-union carrier?

 

[B19 Flyer]

The only reason NetJets does as well as it does is the professionalism of the union pilots.

That is a HUGE slap in the face for non-union pilots. Flying for Netjets and belonging to a union does make them any more professional than the non-union pilots of Avantair. The pilots at Avantair are every bit as professional as Netjets, make no mistake about it.

 

[pilotpat]

That is a HUGE slap in the face for non-union pilots. Flying for Netjets and belonging to a union does make them any more professional than the non-union pilots of Avantair. The pilots at Avantair are every bit as professional as Netjets, make no mistake about it.

Come down your mighty throne, B19.

You've got such a huge, non-flying, management chip on your shoulder you can't even read context. Fischman is talking about the union pilots at NJA. Because you have your hard line non-union stance, you read way too much into his statement. I wouldn't believe for a second that he's bashing non-union pilots. You've got a lot of bitterness in your head and heart. If its been years and years and years since you flew and were laid off, I'd say its time to get over it and have some peace in your life.

 

[fischman]

That is a HUGE slap in the face for non-union pilots. Flying for Netjets and belonging to a union does make them any more professional than the non-union pilots of Avantair. The pilots at Avantair are every bit as professional as Netjets, make no mistake about it.

I meant no disrespect to the pilots of Avantair. Truly I didn't.

How about a rewording?

NetJets has enjoyed extreme success recently due to the professionalism of the pilots, who happen to be unionized.

You are a little oversensitive.

 

[fischman]

Which part of the real world would you like me to remember? The part where I was laid off twice because of union actions or the one where I make more money and feel more secure than I've ever been by working for non-union carrier?

No. I would like you to remember the 2 times you were laid off due to piss poor management. Management signs the contracts with unions. If they can't afford the contracts they shouldn't sign them. That is called poor management.

You may "feel" secure.

I AM secure.

 

[CA1900]

I'd like to point out that my last company had no problem furloughing half its pilots without a union. (This was before 9/11, too.)

 

[hangarrat]

this thread has nothing to do with avantair any more, how about I start a thread called "the pro's and cons of unions in the fractional aviation and airline industry" and you guys can go crazy on the topic in there. then when some one wants to know all the opinions for and against it, they can search for it.

 

[CherryBomb]

There is just too much to read here....


Anyone got the Cliff Notes????

 

[celloman]

CLIFF NOTES:

- Some people think its time for a union at Avantair due to some actions taken by management.

- Netjets wife chimes in that we need a union to secure our future...... again ;-)

- B17 flyer is bitter because he has been laid off twice and thinks it has to do with the union. Does not want a union at any airline.

- Other pilots point out bad things happen to non union pilot groups and it might be managements fault.

- The argument goes back and forth for at least 7 pages....

The end.