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madjack said:
Bitchin all the way to the bank, u guys will fit right in
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My load's lighter going to the bank these days and will be for about 5 more years, I won't be bitchin on the way to the bank. There'll be plenty of other times to bitch.
 
FlyinGuy said:
Actually, you are a little off. What cost you those things was YOU. That's right YOU. You entered this business just like the rest of us. You decided to work for a small airline out of ATL. You were the one that put all your chips on the table and made your bet on AT. Guess what. It did not work out like you planned. I am not making this a knock on you, but on all of us. This is the airline business. Some will get their dream job and make a ton of money then retire....Most of us will have a few more bumps along the way. In the end, YOU make your best decisions for you and your family. Sometimes it works out great and sometimes not so great. The key is to live within your means and take what comes with the best possible attitude. No that is not always easy, but it will give you the best results for YOU and your family......
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Yeah, what I didn't plan on is a bunch of pilots that won't be happy until we are all stapled to the bottom. Had a SWA pilot tell me today that pilots over there are mad too. YGBSM you got All the Captain seats took an average of 3 years from every AT guy and stapled the bottom 400, I know it was all SWA managements fault. SWAPA had nothing to do with it. You are right it did not work out as I planned. I thought I would have been treated with some respect by the company that preaches "the golden rule". I was wrong, you guy are no better than AA when they stuck it to TWA. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. And before some know it all says "you guys voted for this", I was told vote yes and have a job,vote no and all bets are off. Had a CAL guy on the jumpseat, told him the deal. All he could say was "wow I had no idea". I know,I can either accept it or move on. Fortunately for me I have planned well financially, if the opportunity presents itself I can move on. I feel sorry for those that can't.
 
Be miserable, Fletch.

Nobody cares.

You have any idea how many of us at SWA have been wrecked by this industry? Get over yourself.
 
Fetch, I guess your version of the golden rule is for someone to give you what you think "you" deserve. I don't hear you defending the junior SWA f/o's that got stapled below 1700 of your pilots!!! All we hear from you is how "you" got such a bad deal. Guess what...If we could have stapled you we would have. Just like if you could have stapled us, you would have. If you try to refute that, you are not a truth teller (kinder words because I don't want to hurt your fragile feelings)!!!
 
FlyinGuy said:
Fetch, I guess your version of the golden rule is for someone to give you what you think "you" deserve. I don't hear you defending the junior SWA f/o's that got stapled below 1700 of your pilots!!! All we hear from you is how "you" got such a bad deal. Guess what...If we could have stapled you we would have. Just like if you could have stapled us, you would have. If you try to refute that, you are not a truth teller (kinder words because I don't want to hurt your fragile feelings)!!!
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Hey, I'm just stating the facts, SWA did what every other airline has done. you guys just don't like hearing the truth. The truth is your airline is just like the rest, no better, no worse. And NO SWA pilot that was hired prior to the announment sept 27 2010 Was stapled. 400 AT pilots were stapled behind them. Then it goes by DOH. Which is fine because airtran only had one class after the announcement.That's the problem over there, most of you guy don't even know what you voted on.

And as a former military guy ( not pilot ) DOH is the only fair way to combine. I cant screw my fellow coworkers for personal gain. Sorry but I've never been jealous of others, and that is the root of any seniority fight.
 
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Fletch- the root of that 3 year seniority loss angst is your belief that a hire date at AT is equal to a hire date at SWA. It's not a knock on you to admit that's just not true.
 
waveflyer said:
Fletch- the root of that 3 year seniority loss angst is your belief that a hire date at AT is equal to a hire date at SWA. It's not a knock on you to admit that's just not true.
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Just as I made your argument , you made mine.

Your are right, we AT pilots are not equal to the all knowing great SWA pilots. I bow to your superiority will graciously accept my new position in the right seat. And I further apologize for ever thinking that I could ever be an equal after 12 years reduced to 8.5.
 
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Waveflyer, DOH would have been fair. DOH would have put me next to former coworkers who were the same age and experience level as me when we happened to go to different airlines. Now I am junior to former students and FO's with much less experience.
 
I'm so annoyed with the clowns on AAI side of the fence complaining. You clowns elected a bunch of chumps who voted down AIP1 which protected your seat, base, pay, etc. When it was time to send emails you were silent or on wrong side of the argument. You said we should be willing to lose our jobs to fight for seniority, now you can't handle losing a seat. You should have been involved or taken a self inventory two years ago.

We got swiltALPAed. Happens every time. SWAPA guys should shut up also. You guys didn't do anything. I guess you cheered for GK. I cheer for my sports team but at the end of the game I don't brag about how I scored the winning touchdown.
 
Man this thread is still burning up. There is no putting water on the fire in some people's minds. When I was in Atlanta yesterday I remembered why there is a difference between SWA and AAI. ATL is the best example for the difference between the two companies. If all pilot matrix are the same, SWA is still a much better airline and company. It is what it is.
 
fletch717 said:
Hey, I'm just stating the facts, SWA did what every other airline has done. you guys just don't like hearing the truth. The truth is your airline is just like the rest, no better, no worse. And NO SWA pilot that was hired prior to the announment sept 27 2010 Was stapled. 400 AT pilots were stapled behind them. Then it goes by DOH. Which is fine because airtran only had one class after the announcement.That's the problem over there, most of you guy don't even know what you voted on.

And as a former military guy ( not pilot ) DOH is the only fair way to combine. I cant screw my fellow coworkers for personal gain. Sorry but I've never been jealous of others, and that is the root of any seniority fight.
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We know exactly what we voted on. We consider those "hired" in the pool to be SWA pilots. Those were the ones that I was referring to. DOH, really. So if AT went out and bought (insert regional airline here) you would be clammoring for DOH. I doubt it. DOH is only fair to those who gain because they were at a smaller company.

DOH works in the military because you are working for the same company just different departments. If the USA bought the Mexican army, I doubt DOH would be the "fair" seniority plan.

BTW, SWA is just like every other airline. We do our best to protect what we have and try not to give it away just because someone thinks they deserve it. Adios amigo....
 
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Crash Pad said:
When it was time to send emails you were silent or on wrong side of the argument.
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Which category were you in ?

Didn't you vote when these "clowns" were elected ? Or did you sit on your thumb thinking happy thoughts until Gary produced his 'LUV Gun'.
 
FlyinGuy said:
We know exactly what we voted on. We consider those "hired" in the pool to be SWA pilots. Those were the ones that I was referring to. DOH, really. So if AT went out and bought (insert regional airline here) you would be clammoring for DOH. I doubt it. DOH is only fair to those who gain because they were at a smaller company.

DOH works in the military because you are working for the same company just different departments. If the USA bought the Mexican army, I doubt DOH would be the "fair" seniority plan.

BTW, SWA is just like every other airline. We do our best to protect what we have and try not to give it away just because someone thinks they deserve it. Adios amigo....
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I take exception to your post. Date of hire with fences protects everyone and mitigates the ability of one group to screw another. DOH is how we board pur planes, get pay rates, etc. your post reeks of nothing but arrogance and greed
 
I am neither arrogant nor greedy (at least not more than any other pilot out there). That being said, this is not a "fair" game or a "fair" fight. There is no way to make it fair. Just like the gooberment coming in and messing with every aspect of our society to make it "fair"....it does not work. Why, because your definition and my definition of fair will never match up. Fences only give the appearance of "fair".

The bottom line is we are in a business that is cut throat. There is nothing fair about two corps combining workforces. The two go to battle (negotiations) and some come out winners and others come out on the shorter end of the stick. That is how life is. If you want fair, you joined the wrong business....but all businesses will operate the same way....it is about money and the bottom line!!!

So what is a boy to do? Attach your happiness meter to something besides your job...
 
Britpilot said:
The problem lies with training not airframe deliveries.
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Ok, there are going to be 3 B717s leaving per month starting August 2013. With 11-12 pilots per airplanes, that means approximately 35 AirTran B717 pilots will need to start SWA B737 FO school starting next August.

For 2012, SWA is converting 11 AirTran B737-700s and taking 168 pilots across the partition. The question I have not seen a firm answer to is how many AirTran B737s will be getting converted in 2013 and 2014. If the schoolhouse can handle 72 "initial" training events per month, there would be no problem handling 35 former B717 pilots and 35 former AirTran B737 pilots per month (assuming B737 conversions happen at a rate of 2-3 per month).

Still not sure where you see furloughs coming from. Until SWA management comes out and announces a 10% reduction in ASMs (and the associated 10% drop in system block hours), I just don't see any furloughs happening. With the current fuel prices/revenue environment, I don't see SWA needing to reduce capacity anytime soon to maintain profitability. Gary Kelly bought AirTran to solidfy their domestic position and grow, not shrink.
 
scoreboardII said:
He did not do it to grow unless he hits his 15% ROI. Which he won't.
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Exactly. People counting on growth are living in a fantasy world.

Not that I think furloughs are coming. That's just as unlikely as growth, in my opinion.
 
This is where I think the AT folks will realize that they will never get laid off. Here is a number for every AT pilot to take note of. If the price of fuel hits 148 a barrel then we will all have problems. So it needs to jump 60 plus dollars to do so. So of I was AT I wouldn't worry. The numbers will work out for the aircraft transition.
 
fletch717 said:
Just as I made your argument , you made mine.

Your are right, we AT pilots are not equal to the all knowing great SWA pilots. I bow to your superiority will graciously accept my new position in the right seat. And I further apologize for ever thinking that I could ever be an equal after 12 years reduced to 8.5.
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As people we're equal, pilots are pilots - some are better than others on both sides- ive met some really great ones on the AT side. But as jobs- these were not equal jobs and Swa was harder to get. Those of us who were able to get the job took longer to get it. That's why the 2-3 years- IMO should've been 5. But I'm living with the outcome.
 
scoreboardII said:
GK bought AT to remove 1/3rd of the airlines competing against him with lower costs. He did not do it to grow unless he hits his 15% ROI. Which he won't.
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For the 12 month period ending 3/31/12, SWA pulled a 6.1% ROIC with an economic fuel cost of $3.30/gallon. Doing the reverse math provided by the data in the Q1 2012 earnings release, here are the fuel prices that would have been necessary to pull 10% and 15% ROIC:

$3.03/gallon => 10% ROIC

$2.57/gallon => 15% ROIC

The latest SWA RASM estimates were for May 2012 and they came in 5-6% higher than May 2011. The latest EIA spot prices for Jet A are in the $2.60-2.70 range. With the current revenue initiatives coming online over the next few years (Rapid Rewards, AirTran acquisition synergies, B737-800 deployment, and international flying) and the current trends in energy costs, SWA could attain a 15% ROIC quicker than you think. The question is how many consecutive months of lower energy costs will it take for Gary to feel comfortable pulling the growth lever. I seriously doubt SWA is only producing 120 billion ASMs annually by the year 2015.
 
waveflyer said:
As people we're equal, pilots are pilots - some are better than others on both sides- ive met some really great ones on the AT side. But as jobs- these were not equal jobs and Swa was harder to get. Those of us who were able to get the job took longer to get it. That's why the 2-3 years- IMO should've been 5. But I'm living with the outcome.
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And for those of us that never aspired to work at WN don't really care how hard it was to get a job, how long it took, or what it cost (buy your own type, get one from the govt/military, or from a previous employer) and don't believe it should have been a factor at all. But I'm living with the outcome.
 

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