AirTran MEC Chair message.

[PCL_128]

I thought PCL and Lear said it met the definitions under the fragmentation clause. What gives?

Britpilot is mistaken. There's lots of bad information floating around. The attorneys agree that the language applies to this situation, especially since the lease deal is directly with Delta instead of through Boeing.

 

[Britpilot]

Ahhh those same attorneys that have provided so much sage advice in the past?
They are as useful as tits on a bull.

 

[PCL_128]

Well, yes, lawyers do tend to be useless if you don't have the balls to actually use them.

 

[Britpilot]

They took our money and gave nothing. Worthless in every way possible.

 

[Bake]

Britpilolt, When you do cross the partition please let us know how you really feel before we push back from the gate. I would love to be able to find someone else sitting in the seat next to your miserable self.

 

[waveflyer]

And which lawyers were those PCL?
Ones paid by an organization who had zero motivation to facilitate things in an honest manner?

 

[canyonblue]

:bomb:

Actually we were told th:blush:at we would only be on this contract for a year as we would transisition to your contract in a year. That was two years ago. We were sold a pony.

Yeah, I was told I would upgrade in four years. It's the Airlines, believe it when you can bid it otherwise it's bullshiz.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

believe it when you can bid it otherwise it's bullshiz.

Apparently that's bullshiz as well, hence our argument.

 

[Britpilot]

Britpilolt, When you do cross the partition please let us know how you really feel before we push back from the gate. I would love to be able to find someone else sitting in the seat next to your miserable self.

Likewise.

 

[tankerhead]

And which lawyers were those PCL?
Ones paid by an organization who had zero motivation to facilitate things in an honest manner?

Might wanna curtail the use of that "H" word. Deception and duplicity are the words of the decade, so far.

"The road of good intentions has turned dry as a bone." -BS

 

[madjack]

At least we are able to "discuss" the issues...

 

[dicko]

Might wanna curtail the use of that "H" word. Deception and duplicity are the words of the decade, so far.

"The road of good intentions has turned dry as a bone." -BS

Too many words to fit on the desk plaque in Dallas. But a good start nonetheless.

 

[PCL_128]

And which lawyers were those PCL?
Ones paid by an organization who had zero motivation to facilitate things in an honest manner?

Your ignorance is showing, as usual. We don't use in-house attorneys for seniority integrations. Outside counsel is hired and paid directly from our own pilots' merger fund.

 

[scoreboardII]

Nope, you're way off. Only 178 were scheduled to cross befote the cancelled classes.

OK, we are both wrong, but you're more wrong: 168 will make it across this year, there have been no cancelled classes, there are clases scheduled in Aug, Sep, and Dec. The plan is proceeding on schedule to get every 737 pilot across the fence by 2014, depending on what Delta votes, all but 37 717 jets worth of pilots by 2015.

 

[Britpilot]

OK, we are both wrong, but you're more wrong: 168 will make it across this year, there have been no cancelled classes, there are clases scheduled in Aug, Sep, and Dec. The plan is proceeding on schedule to get every 737 pilot across the fence by 2014, depending on what Delta votes, all but 37 717 jets worth of pilots by 2015.

So the letter the company sent us back in March regarding the cancelled classes for April and May was a lie then? All 737 pilots will not make it across by 2015. Mr Jordan already told us this in the employee update as a number of 737's are required for Intl Ops.

How do you figure that all the training wiil be complete by 2015? The footprint for the 717 training was to be 14 days now those guys will require the 60 days training for the 737. The numbers don't work as we have been told only 48 per month can be trained. There is no plan for our transition, none. If there was I would be happy to share it with you.
I may have been off by10 numbers but you aren't even close.

The plan for the Intl 737's that will remain on the AAI side was anywhere between 12 and 32 airfranes. No one can confirm the actual number.
The 717 airframe count is proposed to be 36 at the begining if 2015.

 

[27 driver]

OK, we are both wrong, but you're more wrong: 168 will make it across this year, there have been no cancelled classes, there are clases scheduled in Aug, Sep, and Dec. The plan is proceeding on schedule to get every 737 pilot across the fence by 2014, depending on what Delta votes, all but 37 717 jets worth of pilots by 2015.

scoreboardII
I think he is referring to the cancelled classes of 737 AAI guys moving over to the 717 to keep their captain seats. They bid that thinking that the 717's would be around until the leases started expiring. I wasn't there but apparently that is what we were told in the town hall meetings after downing SIA 1. All those transitions have been cancelled. This made the out of seniority crossing of the partition even worse. Lets see what they came up with in the recent meetings. Maybe a rebid of some sort......who knows?

 

[scoreboardII]

Ohhhhhh, my bad.

 

[27 driver]

Ohhhhhh, my bad.

You probably wouldn't have known as it is strictly an AAI thing. This is not a shot but is seems that many RSW pilots don't have a clue about our side of the partition. I probably wouldn't either if I was on the LUV side.

 

[Britpilot]

Exactly.
It is going to take all of 2012 to train 168 pilots. At the current rate of training 504 pilots will have been trained by Jan 2015 leaving 1156 to be trained.

 

[Lear70]

With 1,600 AirTran pilots remaining to transition with FULL initial training for EVERYONE now, and it taking 54+ days on AVERAGE to get through, including IOE, even if you ramp-up the sim schedule during the night and run 72 a month through training (max reported output of the training center), you're looking at 2 FULL years from when they crank BACK up after New Year's, and that's going 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, holidays not included.

The first class in 2013 isn't even scheduled to start until early March, then you have holiday months in Nov/Dec they don't seem to run classes during, plus the fact that the 717's don't start going away until JUNE of 2013, so just mathematically-speaking, you can't even START the last class until somewhere near April or May of 2015, and that's doing the 365-days-per-year training thing. Longer if you don't have people working holidays.

There's just not a way to get everyone through by the end of 2014 with the scheduled sub-lease movement of the 717 to Delta and the delay in the 737 transitions for International Ops requirements. Not trying to be a killjoy about it, just throwing some cold, hard, real-world numbers for people to chew on so they can plan accordingly.

At this point I'm just about getting our pilots some recompense for the SIA being nothing like we voted on, using the Scope violation as an incentive if necessary, and moving down the road. Can't change the past; can only soften the impact and move into the future...

 

[scoreboardII]

To clarify, my position was only relating to all AT 737 pilots getting across the fence by 2015. That is on schedule. The balance of 717 pilots who are or are not going to make it by 2015, I don't know, nobody does as Delta needs to firm their order for the jets.

The training center most likely won't swing to 24/7, the cost alone would kill that option, plus MX on the sims is completed during those two night shift periods.

 

[Britpilot]

To clarify, my position was only relating to all AT 737 pilots getting across the fence by 2015. That is on schedule. The balance of 717 pilots who are or are not going to make it by 2015, I don't know, no

body does as Delta needs to firm their order for the jets.

The training center most likely won't swing to 24/7, the cost alone would kill that option, plus MX on the sims is completed during those two night shift periods.

Your position is wrong.
The res system will not be up until 2nd quater 2012, with up to 32 737 airframes flying the Intl schedule it is impossible to train all those crews in a couple of months.

 

[chjack]

Your position is wrong.
The res system will not be up until 2nd quater 2012, with up to 32 737 airframes flying the Intl schedule it is impossible to train all those crews in a couple of months.

2nd quarter 2012 ends in a week.

 

[Britpilot]

2nd quarter 2012 ends in a week.

Ha ha yeah it does. How about 2014?

 

[chjack]

Ha ha yeah it does. How about 2014?

ha ha, figured it was a typo...just bustin balls!

 

[Britpilot]

ha ha, figured it was a typo...just bustin balls!

:beer:

 

[U2DRVR]

With 1,600 AirTran pilots remaining to transition with FULL initial training for EVERYONE now, and it taking 54+ days on AVERAGE to get through, including IOE, even if you ramp-up the sim schedule during the night and run 72 a month through training (max reported output of the training center), you're looking at 2 FULL years from when they crank BACK up after New Year's, and that's going 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, holidays not included.

The first class in 2013 isn't even scheduled to start until early March, then you have holiday months in Nov/Dec they don't seem to run classes during, plus the fact that the 717's don't start going away until JUNE of 2013, so just mathematically-speaking, you can't even START the last class until somewhere near April or May of 2015, and that's doing the 365-days-per-year training thing. Longer if you don't have people working holidays.

There's just not a way to get everyone through by the end of 2014 with the scheduled sub-lease movement of the 717 to Delta and the delay in the 737 transitions for International Ops requirements. Not trying to be a killjoy about it, just throwing some cold, hard, real-world numbers for people to chew on so they can plan accordingly.

At this point I'm just about getting our pilots some recompense for the SIA being nothing like we voted on, using the Scope violation as an incentive if necessary, and moving down the road. Can't change the past; can only soften the impact and move into the future...

You are making a lot of assumptions here based on very little information. SWA hired and trained about 600 pilots in 2006 without using the sims late at night. The training center has added 3 sims since then and will likely be adding another soon. Training 800 per year for 2013 and 2014 is well within the realm of possibility. The company thinks very strategically and I'm sure there are multiple plans and contingencies.

 

[FatesPawn]

With 1,600 AirTran pilots remaining to transition with FULL initial training for EVERYONE now, and it taking 54+ days on AVERAGE to get through, including IOE, even if you ramp-up the sim schedule during the night and run 72 a month through training (max reported output of the training center), you're looking at 2 FULL years from when they crank BACK up after New Year's, and that's going 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, holidays not included.

The first class in 2013 isn't even scheduled to start until early March, then you have holiday months in Nov/Dec they don't seem to run classes during, plus the fact that the 717's don't start going away until JUNE of 2013, so just mathematically-speaking, you can't even START the last class until somewhere near April or May of 2015, and that's doing the 365-days-per-year training thing. Longer if you don't have people working holidays.

There's just not a way to get everyone through by the end of 2014 with the scheduled sub-lease movement of the 717 to Delta and the delay in the 737 transitions for International Ops requirements. Not trying to be a killjoy about it, just throwing some cold, hard, real-world numbers for people to chew on so they can plan accordingly.

At this point I'm just about getting our pilots some recompense for the SIA being nothing like we voted on, using the Scope violation as an incentive if necessary, and moving down the road. Can't change the past; can only soften the impact and move into the future...

Huh...

What do you think all that means?

-fate

 

[Lear70]

You are making a lot of assumptions here based on very little information. SWA hired and trained about 600 pilots in 2006 without using the sims late at night. The training center has added 3 sims since then and will likely be adding another soon. Training 800 per year for 2013 and 2014 is well within the realm of possibility. The company thinks very strategically and I'm sure there are multiple plans and contingencies.

You forget the company still has to recurrent train the existing pilots, as well as run nearly 3 times their peak of 2006 through full initial training.

The numbers I listed come from Southwest management regarding capacity to do recurrent training and train AirTran pilots coming over. 72 a month, that's the max THEY say they can handle; it's not a random number I pulled out of my F/O hat that collects dust on my office shelf.

 

[scoreboardII]

Your position is wrong.
The res system will not be up until 2nd quater 2012, with up to 32 737 airframes flying the Intl schedule it is impossible to train all those crews in a couple of months.

OK, lets stop the ball busting and feather ruffling.

SWA pilots have the training to do near international today, they finish off all international training by COB Aug 2013, so all AT international could be done by any SWA pilot as of end of Aug 2013.