AirTran MEC Chair message.

[PCL_128]

Stapling is bad juju and bad karma in ALPA's book by the way.

Don, the problem is that it's not an ALPA issue. Southwest management already made a deal with Delta without following the requirements of our CBA to negotiate a way for our pilots to go with the planes. Delta management had a reasonable expectation that Southwest was bargaining in good faith and complying with all of its legal obligations. Delta isn't responsible for our CBA, because they aren't a party to it. Therefore, they have a deal in place to take the airplanes without the pilots. That means that our grievance is with Southwest, not with Delta. If Delta doesn't want to take the pilots, they don't have to. Southwest (or ALPA) would have to go, hat in hand, to Delta to try to get our pilots positions. Failing that, Southwest would be on the hook for whatever penalty an arbitrator awarded for violating our fragmentation protections. Trying to force Delta into an arbitrated seniority integration won't work. They're under no obligation to do so.

 

[Lear70]

My guess is that if the DAL TA is really tied to the 717's coming over (of which I have my doubts, but it's the stated 'fact') AND along with that the DAL pilots are going to get a significant slice of AT pilots to go with it, they'll flush this thing in a NY minute.

It's not. The DALPA reps are telling people it's planes, and not pilots, which is certainly being driven by management telling them those things.

If it were any other way, I agree, the reps would be screaming and the T.A. would probably die a short, loud death. The upgrades for those pilots are certainly a good size carrot in the T.A. What's unknown is, even if the T.A. is voted down, if the planes are going to Delta anyway (my hunch is yes).

To play devil's advocate ... if there's a choice to go DAL and the scenario plays out that the AT guys are basically stapled, what happens (from an ALPA standpoint) IF not enough AT pilots want to go to Delta? Do they then have to force guys over there to meet whatever fragmentation limits are set? There's still potential to jump right out of the frying pan and straight into the fire ...

You'd have to have the list of who is going BEFORE you went to arbitration or, as you point out above, it screws up what happens afterwards.

To muddy the waters, you have a problem that per the SLI, we all have seniority numbers at Southwest. So let's continue with your devil's advocate approach, and we DON'T have a "hard list" BEFORE arbitration, the arbitration goes badly, they try to force a set number to Delta, and those guys say "No, we have a seniority number at Southwest per prior agreement, we will sue to stay".

It could get really messy REALLY fast if you didn't have the list set in stone with people giving up their seniority rights at Southwest BEFORE the SIA with Delta was worked out...

That's another reason I don't think they included a deal for us to go with the planes even though they are required by our CBA to do so. It's messy. Better from a management perspective to deal with the grievances if/when they come, see how many people are affected, what the financial cost is, and the best way to mitigate that cost after the fact.

Not saying it's legal per our CBA, I'm just thinking from a management perspective and how things seem to have gone lately.

 

[scoreboardII]

Southwest management already made a deal with Delta without following the requirements of our CBA to negotiate a way for our pilots to go with the planes. .

False logic, You have no expectation of this ever happening if SWA swaps the jets for other jets and you still have a job at SWA. They only need to negotiate with you if they intend to get rid of the jobs that go with the jets. That is not whats happening.

Lear stated:That's another reason I don't think they included a deal for us to go with the planes even though they are required by our CBA to do so

Trust us, we'd love to help ya'll go on over to DAL, but thats not whats happening, your jobs are safe here, therefore you have no right to claim you have a right to go with the jets.

Management has a right to manage, if they want you flying a C150 filled with rubber dog doodoo out of Singapore, thats what you will be flying instead of 717's. If they didn't have a job flying c150's, then your CBA would be triggered.

 

[Full of LUV]

DAL gets a highly experienced turnkey operation with almost no associated training costs other than basic indoc stuff. DALPA gets 88 planes that their people can get into if they want after some sort of equipment fence expires and since the ATN pilots come with the planes, there is no net loss of DALPA pilots or upgrade potential that wasn't there pre-merger.

Not nearly enough to placate DAL or DALPA on that deal. Why would the company inherit a bunch of pilots with longevity when they could staff the airline with newhire FO's? Turnkey operation???? They already operate over 9 different types including the 717's prehistoric predecessor the DC9.

Fact is NOBODY cares about the ATN pilots pay, QOL, morale, commute, experience, or happiness except the ATN ALPA! Not DAL, not DALPA, not SWA and not SWAPA.
Best of luck.
LUV

 

[Cometman]

Delta is not taking any pilots and all this talk about grieving it and having SWA either pay Airtran pilots or give them SWAPA pay is not going to happen. Where in the world do you 2 (Lear and PCL) guys come up with this crap. Will you ever be happy or will this be on your mind forever? Do you really think the money will buy you happiness? It will be there soon enough. I would bet after you get the SWAPA money you will still not be happy.

 

[PCL_128]

False logic, You have no expectation of this ever happening if SWA swaps the jets for other jets and you still have a job at SWA. They only need to negotiate with you if they intend to get rid of the jobs that go with the jets. That is not whats happening.

Wrong. Our contract is with AirTran Airways, a wholly owned subsidiary of Southwest. Southwest's aircraft and block hours on your side of the partition do not pertain to our contractual fragmentation language. Replacing 717s by putting new airplanes on the other side of the partition doesn't comply with our scope language.

 

[Lear70]

Wrong. Our contract is with AirTran Airways, a wholly owned subsidiary of Southwest. Southwest's aircraft and block hours on your side of the partition do not pertain to our contractual fragmentation language. Replacing 717s by putting new airplanes on the other side of the partition doesn't comply with our scope language.

Correct.

If they were adding planes on the AirTran side of the partition, and block hours weren't decreasing on the AirTran side of the partition, you'd have an argument.

But it's very clear that this will trigger our 1.F.1 Scope language. That's not the argument, your own management has said they tried and Delta didn't want to take us and start another seniority battle. What remains to be seen is whether their "commercial best effort" and ours are the same thing.

If not, there will be a grievance. SWAPA would 100% defend your contract, I don't see what your angst is in us defending ours. Again... it's not personal, it's business. Just like you tell us the SIA was "just business" for SWAPA and its members.

Can't have it both ways. You fight for your best interests. We fight for ours. What's so hard to understand?

 

[Lear70]

Fact is NOBODY cares about the ATN pilots pay, QOL, morale, commute, experience, or happiness except the ATN ALPA! Not DAL, not DALPA, not SWA and not SWAPA.
Best of luck.
LUV

True dat... lol :beer:

I don't blame anyone for doing what was best for themselves and their members, even if I don't like the outcome.

Just don't ask us to do any less... fair 'nuff?

 

[PCL_128]

Hell, remember SWAPA filing the grievance because of the sticker that was put on one of our 737s the day of corporate closing? None of us bitched about that. I don't see any reason why a SWAPA pilot should bitch about us filing a grievance to enforce our agreement, especially when it has zero negative effect on any SWAPA pilot.

 

[Lear70]

False logic, You have no expectation of this ever happening if SWA swaps the jets for other jets and you still have a job at SWA. They only need to negotiate with you if they intend to get rid of the jobs that go with the jets. That is not whats happening.

That's not what our language says.

It doesn't say "if furloughs are triggered", it simply says if 30% of the block hours in a one-year look-back are sold or transferred, every "commercial best effort" will be made to transfer the pilots with the planes.

There is no caveat for job loss in there. The language is triggered; I highly doubt they'll argue that. What they'll likely say is they expended their "commercial best effort" and it didn't happen.