AirTran MEC Chair message.

[GoodTimes]

PCL and Lear,

Are you guys being advised by the same legal eagles that helped you through the SLI debacle?

 

[scoreboardII]

evidently the same ones who recommended not taking the first deal.

 

[Lear70]

I don't think Lear was suggesting that we would expect $800k/pilot for a settlement. He was only pointing out what the potential damage could be in a worst case scenario (for the company) if an arbitrator were to award the grievance to the Association. That possible damage is the motivation for the company to bargain in good faith towards a settlement that would be much less costly.

^^^ THIS ^^^

evidently the same ones who recommended not taking the first deal.

Actually, the attorneys suggested that the MEC send it out for vote and didn't recommend anything one way or another (that's in the meeting minutes). They also, however, assumed that SWA management would follow the spirit and language of the process agreement. Their words directly to me at the MEC meeting was "If you like the agreement, vote yes. If not, vote no. Don't base your vote on the worry of non-integration."

I say again, if GK had been forthright and had nothing to hide, he would have told us BEFORE the MEC meeting of his intentions to find ways to operate us separately if the deal wasn't ratified. That's something that will continue to chafe us as long as you keep bringing it up.

Want us to get over things? Quit bringing it up. It's just that simple.

My pay has no relation to your seniority.

Exactly.

The simple truth is that SWAPA has zero, zilch, nada, NO control over any changes we make to OUR CBA on this side of the partition. If we work something out with SWA management in exchange for the multiple issues that have arisen because of business choices SWA is making that negatively affect us and our CBA yet don't affect you in the slightest, well that's just what will happen. Like I've said, it is my hope they will work with us in good faith to solve these issues. If the solution happens to be snap-up to your CBA rates, then,,, well,,, Sorry you don't like it, but it doesn't affect you, so...

This is what happens when you allow alter-ego carriers. IMHO, SWAPA should have filed for one CBA and one representative structure from the get-go, just like every OTHER successful merger in recent history. Separate unions on separate CBA's (like UAir/AWA) cause problems...

This is case in point.

 

[vixin]

Lear if you guys thought the 717 was going to stay then you are clueless. So to come back and say we had no idea is poor planning. You always have to look at what GK doesnt say or how he says what he does.

 

[Lear70]

Lear if you guys thought the 717 was going to stay then you are clueless.

So MV, Russ M., Joe H, and other senior management people telling us, during negotiations, in a direct answer to "what happens if the 717's go away early?" and them telling us "This lower pay rate until you transition makes sure the 717 stays "at least" through their lease terminations instead of us looking to dump them ASAP" is being "clueless"?

I'm sorry, I take people at their word when negotiating. I ask a straight question, get a straight answer, and expect it to happen.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

So MV, Russ M., Joe H, and other senior management people telling us, during negotiations, in a direct answer to "what happens if the 717's go away early?" and them telling us "This lower pay rate until you transition makes sure the 717 stays "at least" through their lease terminations instead of us looking to dump them ASAP" is being "clueless"?

I'm sorry, I take people at their word when negotiating. I ask a straight question, get a straight answer, and expect it to happen.

You have been working for AirTran on and off for the last 6 years right? What part of your above statement came from that experience?

 

[vixin]

I agree SS.

 

[spitfire1500]

I'm sorry, I take people at their word when negotiating. I ask a straight question, get a straight answer, and expect it to happen.

Good luck with that....... The LUV mgt and BOD are going to do what they want to do when they want to do it..

 

[redflyer65]

They never wanted to keep the 717 long term, even as early as inking the deal. I'm sure they were looking for ways out of it. As soon as I heard that the 717 sim wasn't coming to Dallas, I knew it was a done deal....and that was over a year ago.

Lear,

I still don't understand why you think Gary should have told you he might liquidate if you didn't pass the first agreement?

If you go in to buy a car, do you tell the dealer what your second move is going to be up front? I think he didn't say anything because he honestly thought the first agreement would pass. In the back of his mind, I think he saw 'the letter' as a nuclear option that he would never get too. The MEC proved him wrong by throwing it back in his face.

He never wanted to write that letter.

 

[MILF Hunter]

Only one problem with your quote of your CBA there, MILF: I don't work under your CBA or your Side Letter 10. Those documents only cover AirTran pilots after they've transitioned to Southwest.

Only one problem with your retort there, PCL:

6. Reference to Section 4.C. EQUIPMENT LONGEVITY PAY:
Effective January 1, 2015, the B717 rates will snap up to B737 rates applicable in the
CBA at that time. Until such time, current AirTran pilots' B717 pay rates will remain at
the AirTran rate, adjusted as needed for TFP /block hour conversion and any applicableincrease per the AirTran CBA.

Your payrates are specifically addressed in our CBA, so any changes would be a violation of our CBA.

I get that you see the issue as a two-party discussion to which we have no say, but the agreement was in fact a three-party deal and shouldn't be changed one way or the other without the consent of all parties.

 

[MILF Hunter]

I really don't mind if you snap up to our rates, but with one very specific condition. Given that your group is about 25% of our group, I would expect 4x the dollar amount distributed to our group at the same time.

Say what you will, but we pay for our Scope, Side Letters, etc, by taking less money for better language. If that language, or those Side Letters are going to change, we should get paid!

 

[ATLplt]

Only one problem with your retort there, PCL:

6. Reference to Section 4.C. EQUIPMENT LONGEVITY PAY:
Effective January 1, 2015, the B717 rates will snap up to B737 rates applicable in the
CBA at that time. Until such time, current AirTran pilots' B717 pay rates will remain at
the AirTran rate, adjusted as needed for TFP /block hour conversion and any applicableincrease per the AirTran CBA.

The last part of that is the most important part. "...any applicable increase per the AirTran CBA." SWA management can amend our CBA, (with our permission of course), and change the pay up or down without SWAPA doing anything about it. We are a separate entity from you and our CBA has zero to do with your SWAPA CBA. All it takes is a side letter on our side, and the language in your contract is still met.

To be honest, I'm fine either way. I think it'd help morale, but there's likely many that would say that's not enough. I just don't understand why SWA pilots would even want people on our MSL making a different wage for doing the same job. Sounds petty and extremely divisive, but hey...we're only sharing cockpits for the next 30+ years.

 

[Lear70]

You have been working for AirTran on and off for the last 6 years right? What part of your above statement came from that experience?

We are now working for Southwest management. I gave them the benefit of the doubt to be different than our prior management team.

 

[Lear70]

I just don't understand why SWA pilots would even want people on our MSL making a different wage for doing the same job. Sounds petty and extremely divisive, but hey...we're only sharing cockpits for the next 30+ years.

+1

But maybe management wants us divided... Especially during SWAPA Sec 6 negotiations. Just a thought.

 

[scoreboardII]

The wages are different because YOU all agreed to make less coin. Makes no matter to me what you get paid, but YOU agreed to it, lets not forget that little detail.

 

[Cometman]

You have been working for AirTran on and off for the last 6 years right? What part of your above statement came from that experience?

What do you mean when you say on and off for the last 6 years?

 

[redflyer65]

What do you mean when you say on and off for the last 6 years?

Here we go!

 

[waveflyer]

We are now working for Southwest management. I gave them the benefit of the doubt to be different than our prior management team.

Yet, you have dealt with mgmt from the beginning the same way you had to deal w/ the mgmt that laid you off for no reason.
You've been aggressively asserting that you guys had an immediate right to our CBA and relative seniority from the beginning.

How could you not be disappointed with that type of expectation-

I honestly think the best solution would be to press for a ratio of your pilots to get to delta- which would be a good perspective builder if nothing else-
But to argue for money when all along you've been pretending that $$ doesn't matter...??? No way

 

[vixin]

I dont think he was laid off. But, he has been in and around the business long enough to know better then take ANY management for its word. While I"ll take GK over any other CEO in the business. One still needs to be watchful of what and how he says things. To think his lawyers didnt vet this out is absurd.

 

[PCL_128]

Your payrates are specifically addressed in our CBA, so any changes would be a violation of our CBA.

This really comes down to the most basic elements of labor law. If you don't have that knowledge, then call the SWAPA office and ask to speak to the in-house attorney or your own NC. They can clear it up for you, since I'm sure you won't believe me. But I have no doubt that they'll confirm the following:

SWAPA is incapable of having provisions in its agreement that pertain to pilots who are not represented by SWAPA. SWAPA contracts (including side letters) can only apply to SWAPA members. Again, that is labor law at its most basic level. What your CBA can and does address is former AirTran pilots who have crossed the partition and begun training on the Southwest side. When you read that paragraph, that is who it is talking about. Not AirTran pilots who are still on the AirTran side of the partition. On our side of the partition, the only legal document relating to our pay is own CBA (including letters of agreement and MOUs).

Another correction: Side Letter 10 is not a 3-party document. Only SWAPA members voted on it. Just like only AirTran pilots voted on our own LOA dealing with the seniority integration. The SIA was not a single document, but a package of documents, and not all three parties were signatories to every part of it. You can't vote on my contract anymore than I can vote on yours. At least not until we're all SWAPA pilots.