AirTran MEC Chair message.

[redflyer65]

This speaks volumes. He is already getting a wonderful reputation at SWA and he isnt even here yet. Must be proud.

Oh boy. I'll need a double now.

 

[dh82dvr]

And see, that's the problem. You were negotiating from a personal perspective of "it won't get any worse for me, and can only get better".

Many of us won't be that lucky. I will go from whatever weekends and holidays I want off, 18 days a month off, to back on reserve at a decent base (unless I choose a 5 hour commute to OAK or LAS which isn't going to happen).

Basically I give up all my quality of life for money. And my fiance' and I do just fine on the money I make now... many of us would rather have had the seniority.

So now that it's over, and the seniority is lost forever, many people just have a "get what you can get" mentality moving forward, and why not? Nothing else is really fixable.

For you it may be a wash, for most of us, it sucks, and is simply going to take time to get over. We will, but it will take time, and a bunch of other people telling us to hurry up and get over it doesn't help either. No one can dictate other people's attitudes, we have to get there on our own.

Isn't that a personal perspective as well?

At this point it is what it is. There are 2 choices left for everyone. Look for the positives and look to the future or dwell on what might have been, what you lost and how much it sucks.

I know what I would rather do.

Cheers
:beer:

 

[Lear70]

Lear is full of poop.

Opinions vary...

He pushed hard to get the 7 to 1 vote. He has no room to complain, criticize, or talk. He lobbied hard and got exactly what he wanted. He then went to Dallas and got us this deal.

You're d*mn right I did. The first deal sucked. The second deal still sucks, it just sucks less for seniority than the first one, but sucks worse for pay. Even the Merger Committee and the rest of the NC during both road shows and voting said the same thing. "The deal sucks".

The problem was, and two members of the MC and I went rounds over this on more than one occasion, was that NO ONE was detailing the "threats" BEFORE the first vote. NO ONE was... at least not to us. Not Gary Kelly, not the MEC, not even the MC during PRIVATE phone calls about the deal. Both Max and Frank (who lurks on this board but almost never posts) were talking to me during negotiations from time to time and neither ONE of them said JACK SH*T about threats.

The last conversation I had with Frank just two days before the MEC meeting was "This deal sucks and is ridiculous, I just don't see how I can vote for it if there's no threat of non-integration. What are the odds they don't integrate us if we go to arbitration?" He said, directly to me, it may take a couple years but integration will happen, so vote how you need to.

If he really felt there were threats, knowing I was in close contact with the MEC and helping push for a "No" vote, maybe a little more clarification of the threats he and Max later started voicing to everyone would have had me (and many others) pushing in a different direction.

There's plenty of blame to go around. I accept my role in rejecting the first one, I just wish I'd known then what they claim they told the MEC.

And as far as the second deal, that wasn't negotiations. That was taking whatever you can get under duress. The MEC knew they were about to lose the pilot group, promised SWA management they would put whatever came out for vote, and that, ladies and gentleman, leaves absolutely ZERO negotiating leverage.

If you're negotiating with someone and you KNOW they have to take WHATEVER you give them, short of completely robbing them, what incentive do you have to really negotiate? You're just going to dictate terms... and that's what happened. It was begging for scraps - any attempt to get anything major back was met with "Sorry, but no". And with no way for US to say "Sorry, but no", well... the agreement we have shows exactly how that works.

He only ignored 86 percent of us.

You and I both know that's bullsh*t. Take away the threat of non-integration and you don't have an 86% vote for that SIA, not a chance in hell. We'd be starting to implement the arbitrator's decision about now if the Process Agreement had been followed and integration hadn't been threatened.

Shoulda woulda coulda, we've been all through that, but don't take your anger out on me, when I'm not the one who threatened your job and took everything the Process Agreement was designed to do and said "we don't have to do that".

 

[Lear70]

Excuse me while I get some popcorn.

:beer:

No need, there's nothing to discuss.

He's making assertions about a conversation he wasn't present for.

As I've said before, the Negotiating Committee didn't really negotiate with SWAPA. The Merger Committee did for the actual "list", but the Negotiating Committee did 90% of our negotiating directly with Southwest, much of which SWAPA wasn't even present for because it dictated changes to our CBA alone.

I don't take it personally. How could he know about a conversation he wasn't present for?

 

[Lear70]

This speaks volumes. He is already getting a wonderful reputation at SWA and he isnt even here yet. Must be proud.

So wait, let me get this straight, because I thought Southwest admired "warrior spirit"...?

So I fight for the benefit of our pilot group, do it in a respectful manner, don't call people names, don't scream at them, don't threaten them, but simply say "I don't think that's fair, here's what I DO think is fair, and why", and suddenly I'm some kind of negative element?

Then, when it's done and I resign myself to what has happened, try to work within the confines of the Agreement and the RLA to continue to improve our pilots' situation until we're all one work group, while simultaneously telling people to stay calm, wait to see what can be worked out, and continue to do their jobs in the admirable and professional way they always have, and again, I'm the bad guy?

You need to explain this to me, because in my world, that's what responsible union leaders do. And watching SWAPA reps, that's what THEY to do as well, even when it steps on our toes, but when they do it, it's OK and when we do it, it's bad?

Again, if you can explain why one is bad and the other is not, I'd love to hear it...

 

[Lear70]

Isn't that a personal perspective as well?

Absolutely.

At this point it is what it is. There are 2 choices left for everyone. Look for the positives and look to the future or dwell on what might have been, what you lost and how much it sucks.

If you look back on all my posts for the last several months, that's what I was doing as well...

It's not until OTHER people stir crap up that I'm forced to respond. If people would quit antagonizing each other, we'd all get through this easier and faster.

 

[Britpilot]

He pushed hard to get the 7 to 1 vote. He has no room to complain, criticize, or talk. He lobbied hard and got exactly what he wanted.

That was the problem.
The "Hated Eight" or "The Magnificent Seven" bowed to a couple hundred emails. The decision to vote on SLI 1 should have been made by the pilots, period.

It doesn't matter anymore, however, as we all have to live with this.

 

[Flyer1015]

Curious, what was the gun hanging over their head (threat)? What if SLI method #2 was voted down by the AAI group?

 

[EngineThunder]

Curious, what was the gun hanging over their head (threat)? What if SLI method #2 was voted down by the AAI group?

Non integration.

 

[St. Nic]

Just saw a Southwest 737-800 in fresh southwest paint- looked good!

 

[4day]

Got the devil skunk eye walking in BWI the other day from a SW FO. Funny how Airtran pilots are now the cause this mess. Guess I didn't read that part in one of my 150 Harmonization bulletins that we got last month. Don't really care about individuals who have anger problems and do hope it all works out. Just very disappointed about how it was handled. Sad to see two good pilot groups fighting over a very poorly executed agreement crafted by MGT.

 

[redflyer65]

Got the devil skunk eye walking in BWI the other day from a SW FO. Funny how Airtran is now the cause. Guess I didn't read that part in one of my 150 Harmonization bulletins that we got last month. Don't really care about individuals and do hope it all works out. Just very disappointed about how it was handled. Sad to see two good pilot groups fighting over a very poorly executed agreement crafted by MGT.

You didn't flash him the 'Medalion'? That's the secret code. Keep it close. I'm making mine into a belt buckle so everyone knows we are on the same team.

 

[Lear70]

Curious, what was the gun hanging over their head (threat)? What if SLI method #2 was voted down by the AAI group?

Do a search, there's pages and pages of the stuff, but long story short, about 48 hours after the MEC voted down SIA 1, Gary Kelly wrote a letter to the pilot group expressing his extreme displeasure that they didn't allow the pilots to have a say and said that, given those events, Southwest would begin to investigate "alternatives to integration", even though Paragraph 6.a of the Process Agreement very specifically said "...utilizing the foregoing procedures, Southwest will implement the combined seniority list and integrate the two companies".

This lead to a lot of heated back-and-forth where it basically came out that Southwest asserted that since they hadn't brought any unionized employees over and that since no planes had come over, that McCaskill-Bond had not been triggered and they were not forced to integrate operations if they chose not to do so. The attorneys said it was doubtful that would hold up, but would take years to fight if they really went that way.

It further came out that with our 717 leases expiring starting in 2017 (just six years from that point) through 2024, and with many of our 737's leased as well, the majority of our pilots might end up on the street while the whole thing worked itself out over many years (it took TWA 10 years to get their court battle heard and we know how many thousands of them have yet to be recalled to AA).

Our pilots were not willing to accept that kind of risk and several of the same pilots of ours who were writing Gary Kelly personally during talks for SIA 1 just begging for a staple, etc, started a drive to remove key union officers who lead the "No" vote push, replace them with their own people, and push for whatever we could get, up to and including a staple. Those people combined with the sudden influx of emails and phone calls saying, basically, "We won't accept this kind of a risk, do something" vastly overwhelmed the several hundred people who had emailed pushing for arbitration before we knew there was this "non-integration" risk.

The MEC, realizing we were about to implode as a union... again... directed the MC to go back out to Dallas and "get whatever they could get", which included a promise to put whatever we came up with out for pilot vote. The NC was then instructed to go out and get everything WE could get. The only thing we were allowed to say No to was a complete staple or probationary periods (and they actually did try to put us all on probation, it was the only thing we got up and walked out of the room for in that 2nd round).

Southwest management then put us under a time constraint, saying they had "400 people working on Plan B - non-integration, and had to report to the Southwest Board at the end of the week, so we have to have a deal on Thursday or we will recommend the non-integration path to the Board and start proceeding".

The Agreement we have now is the outcome of those talks. During the voting period, the Merger Committee on an all-pilot conference call said "If you want to work for Southwest, vote Yes. If you don't, vote No." and that pretty much sealed the deal. Too many people afraid of losing their jobs to fight.

There are a LOT of other details, but that's the long and short of it, and is why some people (gotta love Dicko's avatar) say we had a "gun pointed to our head" in this deal. Take the threat of non-integration out of it, and we'd have gone to arbitration. Maybe we'd have done better, maybe we'd have done worse, but it's over now and it's simply going to take a while for the angst to pass.

In the meantime we'll just keep on doing our jobs, achieving our 94% on-time and top baggage handling spot, and making money for everyone's profit sharing checks. Life goes on...

 

[Lear70]

You didn't flash him the 'Medalion'? That's the secret code. Keep it close. I'm making mine into a belt buckle so everyone knows we are on the same team.

LOL... nice.

Most people I run into are fine. Some are more talkative than others, and that's OK. Just have to remember to be good to each other, there are no individual pilots who are the "cause" of anything, and in the long run it will all work out. Better for some than others, but that's life... :beer:

 

[jball2]

I agree with the last statement. I get the royal stink eye on the ATL parking bus almost every time I am on it. However, there is usually someone on there who is the complete opposite. They have a great attitude despite the circumstances and they renew my faith that we will be OK.

 

[PCL_128]

and they actually did try to put us all on probation

Wow. That's the first time I've heard that. Unbelievable. Golden rule, my ass.

 

[madjack]

Disappointed sure, surprised?

 

[madjack]

If the company wanted to, they could have said staple or nonintegrate vs SL10... F the golden rule in negotiations, you wanted seats and pay as did we, we were here first and our company bought your company...the fact that sl10 is not a staple and you still have jobs is because SWA needs you to come to work....

 

[Cometman]

This speaks volumes. He is already getting a wonderful reputation at SWA and he isnt even here yet. Must be proud.

Remember, you can take the animal out of the jungle but you cannot take the jungle out of the animal. Both PCL and Lear70 are what they are. Just because they are now with SWA doesn't mean they will be any different. Their reputation will follow them through out their careers. If they were truly professional they would stop stirring the pot on FI and the other forums. However, it makes them feel smart with all their talk. They are bitter and will never forget it. They will be a thorn in SWA side for years to come.

 

[scoreboardII]

GK's 15% ROI myth.

While some have posted SWA came close to making 15% ROI, and claim it will take just a few quarters to hit it, SWA may hit it one quarter off and on, but not repeatably.

The reason is SWA does not opperate in a vacuum. For every opportunity to go after 15% ROI comes with it a challenge to charge less to get or keep market share because we do not operate in a vacuum: our fuel charge is their fuel charge, our labor cost is their labor cost. It means defering replacement aircraft solely to get 15% ROI. So when SWA starts popping more tops and buying replacement jets, that ROI slips further out to the horizon. What we can charge for a ticket is what they can charge for a ticket. More seats on a plane doesn't mean more money unless you can make money filling those seats.

The 15% ROI dream is GK's way to keep everyone on their toes and keep them guessing: will he defer purchases, start new destinations, close old ones, go international? Who knows, he is going after 15%, even though he can't repeatably get 15% because it gives him flexability.

I say 10% is achievable, 15, not so much.

I saw a SWA published chart showing our prime equal cost competitor were Allegient, Virgin America and Jetblue. Lets see, we are being compared against a scheduled charter operation, a privately held non unionized airline backed by Branson known to fund a cause for decades before he see's a return and Jetblue, another non unionized workforce who will soon be clamoring for a union as their young see their futures sink.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Oh yes.....the Golden Rule that everyone keeps talking about.

SWA version....treat people respectfully.

AT version....give me what I think I deserve in negotiations.

Guess what Lear, you were negotiating with the management of the most successful airline in the world!!! Did you actually you were going to ever force their back against the wall? Many of us cautioned you guys continually on this subject. They talk nice, but they will pin your arse against the wall if you don't play their way. Guess what, you made your move and this is what happened. There have not been very many times that someone comes out with a better deal the second time around with these guys. Anyways, whats done is done......hopefully we can grow and make money.

 

[PCL_128]

SWA version....treat people respectfully.

In that case, I don't think "respectfully" means what they think it means.

 

[Lear70]

Wow. That's the first time I've heard that. Unbelievable. Golden rule, my ass.

Yeah, morning of Day 2.

Jack went in privately with Frank to tell them that this issue was one of the few we had authority to walk away for and would.

It took 4 hours while Russ M and Joe H went to Mike V with SWAPA and we essentially cooled our heels most of the morning and lunch before they came back and said Mike V approved that to be taken back off the table (removing any talk of probation) and putting the "no-probation" language back in.

 

[Lear70]

Remember, you can take the animal out of the jungle but you cannot take the jungle out of the animal. Both PCL and Lear70 are what they are. Just because they are now with SWA doesn't mean they will be any different. Their reputation will follow them through out their careers. If they were truly professional they would stop stirring the pot on FI and the other forums. However, it makes them feel smart with all their talk. They are bitter and will never forget it. They will be a thorn in SWA side for years to come.

And you expect me to believe you don't work for Southwest or AirTran? Riiiiight... You sound a lot like Bennefield... I think he used that exact wording on our message board a while back... as did Boeing 717. How's that lawsuit going by the way?

At any rate, I'm not the one stirring the pot, but I also won't let people take potshots at me without responding. In case you hadn't noticed, it had been days since I'd posted until someone called me out. Just been watching and listening and am content to do so when people let things be.

But you and your buddy Boeing717 keep trying... someone might believe you, if they don't go back and read the actual thread. I don't respond until someone says something that's not true or calls me out. Otherwise I keep telling people to just let it go and move on.

Make sure you print the whole thread when you take it upstairs, and not just cutting and pasting the parts you take exception to...

 

[Cometman]

And you expect me to believe you don't work for Southwest or AirTran? Riiiiight... You sound a lot like Bennefield... I think he used that exact wording on our message board a while back... as did Boeing 717. How's that lawsuit going by the way?

At any rate, I'm not the one stirring the pot, but I also won't let people take potshots at me without responding. In case you hadn't noticed, it had been days since I'd posted until someone called me out. Just been watching and listening and am content to do so when people let things be.

But you and your buddy Boeing717 keep trying... someone might believe you, if they don't go back and read the actual thread. I don't respond until someone says something that's not true or calls me out. Otherwise I keep telling people to just let it go and move on.

Make sure you print the whole thread when you take it upstairs, and not just cutting and pasting the parts you take exception to...

Wrong. I do not work for either. You are not that smart Lear70. Remember the old saying " rather a man think I am fool than to open my mouth and remove all doubt". You should say that a few times so it sinks in. Your best bet is to try and stop posting and stick to your company site. This site is for people like me that has nothing else to do. You are too easy.

 

[Lear70]

Wrong. I do not work for either.

You either do or you're retired from one of the two (I'm betting retired SWA), but keep saying it if it makes you feel better...

Your best bet is to try and stop posting and stick to your company site.

I'd be glad to if people would stop calling me out or posting things that are just blatantly incorrect. I have posted many times trying to calm people down on here; I'm obviously not here to stir the pot.

 

[PCL_128]

Wrong. I do not work for either.

Yeah, sure.

 

[Cometman]

Yeah, sure.

I am sure we could prove it one way or the other if you are game. Let me know. But be ready to accept that fact you and Lear are wrong.

 

[Cometman]

You either do or you're retired from one of the two (I'm betting retired SWA), but keep saying it if it makes you feel better...

Now you are fishing Lear70. Admit you do not know but guessing. It is now time for you to move on and not worry about what other people on here are saying about you. They might be just like me and just getting to you. Grow up, you are not helping yourself start a new life with a new company. All you are doing is bring all your dirty laundry from one to the next. But then again you know that already.

 

[scoreboardII]

8-5-2009 this was posted:

I agree. If we have another type of aircraft it has to be the same pay rate as the 737. UPS does and it seems to work. However, if we are taking both groups then it has to be a staple. Just think if we did not staple. There could be Lynx guys ahead of SWA pilots? You would have to staple both groups for this to work.

The discussion was about SWA buying F9 and lynx; so why would you say "we are taking both groups" and "if we did not staple", if you are not or where not a SWA pilot?