AirTran MEC Chair message.

[scoreboardII]

To clarify, my position was only relating to all AT 737 pilots getting across the fence by 2015. That is on schedule. The balance of 717 pilots who are or are not going to make it by 2015, I don't know, nobody does as Delta needs to firm their order for the jets.

The training center most likely won't swing to 24/7, the cost alone would kill that option, plus MX on the sims is completed during those two night shift periods.

 

[Britpilot]

To clarify, my position was only relating to all AT 737 pilots getting across the fence by 2015. That is on schedule. The balance of 717 pilots who are or are not going to make it by 2015, I don't know, no

body does as Delta needs to firm their order for the jets.

The training center most likely won't swing to 24/7, the cost alone would kill that option, plus MX on the sims is completed during those two night shift periods.

Your position is wrong.
The res system will not be up until 2nd quater 2012, with up to 32 737 airframes flying the Intl schedule it is impossible to train all those crews in a couple of months.

 

[chjack]

Your position is wrong.
The res system will not be up until 2nd quater 2012, with up to 32 737 airframes flying the Intl schedule it is impossible to train all those crews in a couple of months.

2nd quarter 2012 ends in a week.

 

[Britpilot]

2nd quarter 2012 ends in a week.

Ha ha yeah it does. How about 2014?

 

[chjack]

Ha ha yeah it does. How about 2014?

ha ha, figured it was a typo...just bustin balls!

 

[Britpilot]

ha ha, figured it was a typo...just bustin balls!

:beer:

 

[U2DRVR]

With 1,600 AirTran pilots remaining to transition with FULL initial training for EVERYONE now, and it taking 54+ days on AVERAGE to get through, including IOE, even if you ramp-up the sim schedule during the night and run 72 a month through training (max reported output of the training center), you're looking at 2 FULL years from when they crank BACK up after New Year's, and that's going 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, holidays not included.

The first class in 2013 isn't even scheduled to start until early March, then you have holiday months in Nov/Dec they don't seem to run classes during, plus the fact that the 717's don't start going away until JUNE of 2013, so just mathematically-speaking, you can't even START the last class until somewhere near April or May of 2015, and that's doing the 365-days-per-year training thing. Longer if you don't have people working holidays.

There's just not a way to get everyone through by the end of 2014 with the scheduled sub-lease movement of the 717 to Delta and the delay in the 737 transitions for International Ops requirements. Not trying to be a killjoy about it, just throwing some cold, hard, real-world numbers for people to chew on so they can plan accordingly.

At this point I'm just about getting our pilots some recompense for the SIA being nothing like we voted on, using the Scope violation as an incentive if necessary, and moving down the road. Can't change the past; can only soften the impact and move into the future...

You are making a lot of assumptions here based on very little information. SWA hired and trained about 600 pilots in 2006 without using the sims late at night. The training center has added 3 sims since then and will likely be adding another soon. Training 800 per year for 2013 and 2014 is well within the realm of possibility. The company thinks very strategically and I'm sure there are multiple plans and contingencies.

 

[FatesPawn]

With 1,600 AirTran pilots remaining to transition with FULL initial training for EVERYONE now, and it taking 54+ days on AVERAGE to get through, including IOE, even if you ramp-up the sim schedule during the night and run 72 a month through training (max reported output of the training center), you're looking at 2 FULL years from when they crank BACK up after New Year's, and that's going 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, holidays not included.

The first class in 2013 isn't even scheduled to start until early March, then you have holiday months in Nov/Dec they don't seem to run classes during, plus the fact that the 717's don't start going away until JUNE of 2013, so just mathematically-speaking, you can't even START the last class until somewhere near April or May of 2015, and that's doing the 365-days-per-year training thing. Longer if you don't have people working holidays.

There's just not a way to get everyone through by the end of 2014 with the scheduled sub-lease movement of the 717 to Delta and the delay in the 737 transitions for International Ops requirements. Not trying to be a killjoy about it, just throwing some cold, hard, real-world numbers for people to chew on so they can plan accordingly.

At this point I'm just about getting our pilots some recompense for the SIA being nothing like we voted on, using the Scope violation as an incentive if necessary, and moving down the road. Can't change the past; can only soften the impact and move into the future...

Huh...

What do you think all that means?

-fate

 

[Lear70]

You are making a lot of assumptions here based on very little information. SWA hired and trained about 600 pilots in 2006 without using the sims late at night. The training center has added 3 sims since then and will likely be adding another soon. Training 800 per year for 2013 and 2014 is well within the realm of possibility. The company thinks very strategically and I'm sure there are multiple plans and contingencies.

You forget the company still has to recurrent train the existing pilots, as well as run nearly 3 times their peak of 2006 through full initial training.

The numbers I listed come from Southwest management regarding capacity to do recurrent training and train AirTran pilots coming over. 72 a month, that's the max THEY say they can handle; it's not a random number I pulled out of my F/O hat that collects dust on my office shelf.

 

[scoreboardII]

Your position is wrong.
The res system will not be up until 2nd quater 2012, with up to 32 737 airframes flying the Intl schedule it is impossible to train all those crews in a couple of months.

OK, lets stop the ball busting and feather ruffling.

SWA pilots have the training to do near international today, they finish off all international training by COB Aug 2013, so all AT international could be done by any SWA pilot as of end of Aug 2013.

 

[Lear70]

OK, lets stop the ball busting and feather ruffling.

SWA pilots have the training to do near international today, they finish off all international training by COB Aug 2013, so all AT international could be done by any SWA pilot as of end of Aug 2013.

Aha, give that man a cigar. Well-played, sir.

Was wondering when someone was going to figure that out (or already had and was going to post it here).

There's not a flipping thing that says they can't be differences-trained in our 737's (dual autopilot), or dumb it down to not use it and be signed off for those hull numbers by the FAA, and they're flying them instead of us on 1/1/15.

No, I'm not talking furlough (our no-furlough clause is perfectly intact, and wouldn't hold up to that kind of a move and flush to furlough), but if they hit 1/1/15, SWAPA won't budge on the Scope, and Southwest decides not to push the loophole they created, they could simply pull the last of our pilots who are flying the 737's on 1/1/15 and send them home on guarantee for several months until they could get the last of them through.

The airplanes don't lose a dime of revenue, they keep right on flying until they go to paint, but with Southwest pilots up front, put a big ONE LUV sticker on the side of the plane and say "Operated by Southwest Airlines", it's on their master approved aircraft list in their Ops Specs, done deal.

I'm betting that's the fall-back position. Make no mistake, they could barrel right through your scope clause, but if management can't get SWAPA to give further relief but yet don't want to push a more militant solution and fall back to something like this, as long as it doesn't compromise and downgrade every last AAI Captain by doing it BEFORE 12/31/14, then I still hold out hopes for the culture for the future at Southwest, a decade or so after the dust settles from all this.

 

[U2DRVR]

You forget the company still has to recurrent train the existing pilots, as well as run nearly 3 times their peak of 2006 through full initial training.

The numbers I listed come from Southwest management regarding capacity to do recurrent training and train AirTran pilots coming over. 72 a month, that's the max THEY say they can handle; it's not a random number I pulled out of my F/O hat that collects dust on my office shelf.

Not sure where you get the "3 times their peak of 2006". If there remains 1600 AT folks to train, and the company want to comply with SL10 and get it all done by 1/1/2015, and they don't do much more this year, that leaves 2 full years (2013 & 2014) to train 1600. I'm no math major (physics for me) but that appears to be 800 per year. That works out to 67 per month, which is less than what THEY said they can handle. I imagine the number THEY (whoever it is you talked to that may or may not have the big long term picture) gave you is based on current staffing, resources and scheduling assumptions...all of which are subject to change.

SWA management never lies, but they do choose their words VERY carefully and leave their options open. You guys have been burned twice now by making assumptions about what management would do. You should pay very close attention to the specific words and phrases they use and assume that they are planning at least 5 steps ahead of what you are thinking. Don't assume that they can't find some way to make things happen the way they want...they almost always do!

 

[Britpilot]

OK, lets stop the ball busting and feather ruffling.

SWA pilots have the training to do near international today, they finish off all international training by COB Aug 2013, so all AT international could be done by any SWA pilot as of end of Aug 2013.

Yup, that is true and that is why we will see furloughs on the AAI side.
They can't train all of us and they won't need all of us. Furlough will fix the problem.

 

[texman]

You probably wouldn't have known as it is strictly an AAI thing. This is not a shot but is seems that many RSW pilots don't have a clue about our side of the partition. I probably wouldn't either if I was on the LUV side.

Ahhhhhh, you might have a point. So all in all the SWA side is not so much in the dark but the info is, the 717 gone means RSW pilots get the capt seats, but their are 30 plus 717's that might be on the AT side after 2015.

I get it. So now you deal with who goes where and when. I want to say that know one will be out of a job.

From what we know is the 717's will be replaced with 737's and we will have the same fleet size. Flat.

Global MSL will rule after 2015. It is our SL 8 and SL 10 that will benefit RSW.

Hey I'm at the bottom so what do I know.

 

[scoreboardII]

Yup, that is true and that is why we will see furloughs on the AAI side.
They can't train all of us and they won't need all of us. Furlough will fix the problem.

I disagree, as much as you dislike the SLI outcome, GK did try to make the deal as friendly to you all as possible (keep all captain seats as an example).

Labor harmony and every pilot having a vote being number two example of GK making sure pilots had a say.

So then add "No furloughs" retorted by GK and others numerous times and you will have no furloughs. You may fly min guarantee, or sit and not fly banking min guarantee, but there will be no furloughs.

Why?

Because WE are watching, and if he goes back on his word to you, he is toast. He is already on less than thin ice on our side. One hiccup and our goodwill is forever gone.

 

[texman]

Oh just out of the school house we will have late sim periods when this all goes down. If this helps.

 

[scoreboardII]

Oh yeah, I bet the PM guys get tubed with the 1201AM box time.

Thanks Gary!

 

[waveflyer]

I don't mind the midnight sim, done that a few times- esp coming from Vegas, that's a lot better than the 5am brief

 

[humveedriver]

Oh yeah, I bet the PM guys get tubed with the 1201AM box time.

Thanks Gary!

Good practice for the red eye flying coming to a SWA schedule near you! Just got in from one. It's not too bad really. Well, except after lunch I can't keep my eyes open..

 

[Lear70]

Good practice for the red eye flying coming to a SWA schedule near you! Just got in from one. It's not too bad really. Well, except after lunch I can't keep my eyes open..

I'm amazed you get that far.

I get the nods right about the final hour descending into ATL or MKE, every, single time.