AA's new B scale

[AceOnTheRiver]

The only thing that's clear about this whole situation is that there'll be more arbitrations, lawsuits, etc, to iron this thing out. Best of luck.

stlflyguy

True, I am sure the flowthroughs are going to sue for their TOS for pay and benefits since it was given to NEW HIRE TWA pilots.

 

[Neubyfly]

Eagle had 127 pilots flow through (give or take), AA had over 4X that many flow back to the left seat. Not sure where Eagle got the best out of that deal. .

There are 564, or so, flowthroughs who have numbers that will flow. That's 127 plus 564 equals 691. Compare that to the 280 or so Flowbacks that actually flew the line at Eagle and I'd say it was pretty fair. Except for the fact that flowback rights only lasted, at most, 5 years and expired with letter 3 while flowthrough rights last forever and many will have 20 year careers at AA. And let's not forget Eagle STILL has the rights to fly the jets while the APA has no protections anymore.

 

[Neubyfly]

There were just over 400 flying as captain at one time.

Not even close. There were only 313 that took advantage of the flowback. Many of those went straight to MLOA.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

There are 564, or so, flowthroughs who have numbers that will flow. That's 127 plus 564 equals 691. Compare that to the 280 or so Flowbacks that actually flew the line at Eagle and I'd say it was pretty fair. Except for the fact that flowback rights only lasted, at most, 5 years and expired with letter 3 while flowthrough rights last forever and many will have 20 year careers at AA. And let's not forget Eagle STILL has the rights to fly the jets while the APA has no protections anymore.

Eagle should have had around 1500 numbers.
Eagle got 691 total with 127 over the fence.
Flowbacks to Eagle around 400.
TWA had a high number percentage of flowback positions yet it took an arbitration for Eagle to get any numbers form them. I believe we got a total of 154 numbers from TWA addition.
Of course this is all water under the bridge now. We have to look forward to remedy and the future. I have been hearing they might do a double staple to create a master list. It would probably be better just to merge the lists, but I think APA is running scared of lawsuits after Congress changed the merger laws.

 

[thor2j]

There are 564, or so, flowthroughs who have numbers that will flow. That's 127 plus 564 equals 691. Compare that to the 280 or so Flowbacks that actually flew the line at Eagle and I'd say it was pretty fair. Except for the fact that flowback rights only lasted, at most, 5 years and expired with letter 3 while flowthrough rights last forever and many will have 20 year careers at AA. And let's not forget Eagle STILL has the rights to fly the jets while the APA has no protections anymore.

You need to check your numbers, not even close. When it was signed, AA mngmt said that they were not going to hire for "atleast" 18 months and most likely it would be 2 years. Guess, what, they started hiring with in a couple of months. If it had worked as advertised by AA mngmt every AE pilot would of flowed in 5 years. AA Mngmt scammed the thing the whole time. They knew when they would hire and flat out lied in person to many.(which now happens all the time).

Flowthrough was in effect for ten years, not five. Also, there jobs did not expire with letter 3, only there right to hold captain, they still had jobs at AE.

 

[Neubyfly]

You need to check your numbers, not even close. When it was signed, AA mngmt said that they were not going to hire for "atleast" 18 months and most likely it would be 2 years. Guess, what, they started hiring with in a couple of months. If it had worked as advertised by AA mngmt every AE pilot would of flowed in 5 years. AA Mngmt scammed the thing the whole time. They knew when they would hire and flat out lied in person to many.(which now happens all the time).

Flowthrough was in effect for ten years, not five. Also, there jobs did not expire with letter 3, only there right to hold captain, they still had jobs at AE.

My numbers are accurate.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

An item that seems to have escaped mention:

When the flowbacks began, Eagle ALPA started to scream bloody murder and successfully prevented any formerTWA flowbacks for approximately 9 months. Nearly 800 American Airlines (that's what my paycheck said, that's what the release said, and that's what was on the tickets that my passengers bought) pilots were denied their contractual rights to exercise the flowback provisions. APA didn't care because it was all former TWA-ers, and only pursued remedy when it started to affect the natives.

In my humble opinion, you either honor all provisions of the flow agreement or the whole thing is null and void.

VU

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

I don't think they ever contemplated what would happen if they bought another airline or if they actually furloughed. Hell, they couldn't even get straight when they were going to hire. It's safe to say that there will never be another Letter 3 in AMR's history.

 

[Neubyfly]

True, they were on the APA seniority list even though they operated under the TWA certificate- similar to Eagle CAs operating under the Eagle certificate while on the APA seniority list.

.

Actually, more like Eagle and Executive.

 

[XTW]

True, they were on the APA seniority list even though they operated under the TWA certificate- similar to Eagle CAs operating under the Eagle certificate while on the APA seniority list.

Keep in mind that AA/TWA were deemed "single carrier" and operated under the same contract. I don't think that compares to the AA/Eagle relationship at all.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

ALPA could at any time get a single carrier ruling from the NMB, but ALPA doesn't want to upset APA and they also don't want to lose another 3K members.

 

[N60OSU]

I've seen several time in this thread the basic statement that flowback CAs lost their seats when L3/SW expired. Whether it is an intentional misrepresentation or not, it has been used by some as justification for the expiration of Eagle pilots' flowthrough rights.

When Letter 3 expired in May 08 FBs lost their protection from displacement by anyone other than a senior AA pilot. They still retained ther CA seats. They were only displaced to FO when Eagle ran a large displacement bid in July 08.

It's a subtle difference, and probably unimportant to those who are opposed to Eagle pilots flowing to AA, but there it is.

 

[Neubyfly]

I've seen several time in this thread the basic statement that flowback CAs lost their seats when L3/SW expired. Whether it is an intentional misrepresentation or not, it has been used by some as justification for the expiration of Eagle pilots' flowthrough rights.

When Letter 3 expired in May 08 FBs lost their protection from displacement by anyone other than a senior AA pilot. They still retained ther CA seats. They were only displaced to FO when Eagle ran a large displacement bid in July 08.

It's a subtle difference, and probably unimportant to those who are opposed to Eagle pilots flowing to AA, but there it is.

And, if, as nicolau has ruled, flowthoughs should have flowed begining in June 2007 then, the flowbacks would not have lost their seats since there would not have been a displacement.

 

[eglguy]

And, if, as nicolau has ruled, flowthoughs should have flowed begining in June 2007 then, the flowbacks would not have lost their seats since there would not have been a displacement.

Tru dat!

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

... and FO's would have upgraded too.

 

[N60OSU]

Any idea how many flowbacks are still on property? Last FB I flew with was NOV 08. I'm not sure where he ranked amongh the remaining FBs but at the time he expected to be recalled before completing long term on the Canadair. I haven't seen him in the crewroom...

 

[Neubyfly]

Any idea how many flowbacks are still on property? Last FB I flew with was NOV 08. I'm not sure where he ranked amongh the remaining FBs but at the time he expected to be recalled before completing long term on the Canadair. I haven't seen him in the crewroom...

25 give or take a couple.

 

[Flyby1206]

And, if, as nicolau has ruled, flowthoughs should have flowed begining in June 2007 then, the flowbacks would not have lost their seats since there would not have been a displacement.

Good point, the whole thing has turned into a huge FUBAR situation.

 

[Neubyfly]

Good point, the whole thing has turned into a huge FUBAR situation.

Unfortunately it has. And, unfortunately the FUBAR is far from over.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

They should have this all settled by the end of next week.

 

[Pilotbob3]

Eagle Pukes....this one will not stand.

 

[Neubyfly]

They should have this all settled by the end of next week.

Now that is funny!!!

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

Now that is funny!!!

What is funny? Are you telling me you don't think they will come up with a settlement next week? I hope they do the double staple that has been talked about and create a master list and then convert the 70's to 90's and order another 100. If that doesn't happen then at worst they will come up with a TA 2.0. AA will probably start recalling this spring anyway so it's a mute point.

 

[Neubyfly]

What is funny? Are you telling me you don't think they will come up with a settlement next week? I hope they do the double staple that has been talked about and create a master list and then convert the 70's to 90's and order another 100. If that doesn't happen then at worst they will come up with a TA 2.0. AA will probably start recalling this spring anyway so it's a mute point.

They will not come up with a settlement next week or within the 90 day window.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

So you are thinking they will leave APA out of it and go with a three party settlement?

 

[Flyby1206]

They should have this all settled by the end of next week.

I have been hearing this in regards to the Letter3 situation since I have been at Eagle. It wont be solved next week, or next month, or even a few years from now.

It would be great if all 4 parties could be locked in a room and told to solve the problems and dont come out until they do. I honestly dont care what the ultimate outcome is, I would just prefer to see the issues settled and gone so we can all continue our regularly scheduled programming.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

I have been hearing this in regards to the Letter3 situation since I have been at Eagle. It wont be solved next week, or next month, or even a few years from now.

It would be great if all 4 parties could be locked in a room and told to solve the problems and dont come out until they do. I honestly dont care what the ultimate outcome is, I would just prefer to see the issues settled and gone so we can all continue our regularly scheduled programming.

I guess I will go with the prior history of the failed TA. That is why I believe it will be settled next week.

 

[Flyby1206]

I guess I will go with the prior history of the failed TA. That is why I believe it will be settled next week.

Or maybe we will have another failed TA next week

As I said before, I really wish something could be worked out to settle the issues of everyone once and for all, but thats just not how things operate at AMR, and nobody is in the mood to get together and sing kum-ba-ya around the campfire at HQ.

 

[Neubyfly]

So you are thinking they will leave APA out of it and go with a three party settlement?

They can't do a three party settlement. That's not the way it works. After 90 days it will go back to the arbiter. The arbiter will take many many months to reach a remedy. In the mean time... we all wait.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

They can't do a three party settlement. That's not the way it works. After 90 days it will go back to the arbiter. The arbiter will take many many months to reach a remedy. In the mean time... we all wait.

If APA is the only one not to sign off on a new TA and they were the ones to kill the last TA, then I would expect the three parties to submit the TA to the arbitrator for him to sign off on. This will be settled soon since APA has a very weak position.