AA's new B scale

[glasspilot]

Viewed in the light of this mess I say give DOH to everybody. AA merges with TWA...DOH intergration. Sucks for junior AA guys but those TWA guys didn't do anything wrong and they do have the experience.

Eagle guys in the flow through? DOH...Eagle DOH as Eagle is an AA property. Line everybody up and put 'em to work. Furlough who you need and train who you must. But DOH makes it very easy. I know feelings will get hurt but it makes the most sense.

I know that will never happen. It's what is right, but will never happen.

God it would make it all sooooo easy too, but will never happen...

 

[FO 4 Life]

Eagle had 127 pilots flow through (give or take), AA had over 4X that many flow back to the left seat. Not sure where Eagle got the best out of that deal. When I downgraded for the second time, my entire class was TWA guys and a furlough AA instructor was teaching. TWA guys were great but everybody was whining about their situation.

Yeah, I felt their pain about going to the top of the pay scale and flying left seat. Nothing personal, just business.

 

[stlflyguy]

Where did numbers of flowthrus vs. flowbacks come into this? Did I miss the part in the Supp/Letter that stated that the numbers would be even?

stlflyguy

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

Where did numbers of flowthrus vs. flowbacks come into this? Did I miss the part in the Supp/Letter that stated that the numbers would be even?

stlflyguy

Well sort of. The agreement was designed for Eagle to have half of the new hire positions at AA. In effect, if Eagle had gotten half of the new hire slots like they were supposed to have had then most of the flowbacks would have been former Eagle CA's. Once the Eagle CA received his number at AA he was required to finish his lock in at AE. It is painfully obvious that while an arbitrator ruled the flow through couldn't be recalled, the flow through pilots seniority is the same as any other AA pilot.

 

[Flightdawg]

Where did numbers of flowthrus vs. flowbacks come into this? Did I miss the part in the Supp/Letter that stated that the numbers would be even?

It was in the section where TWA pilots were part of the flowback.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

Flowthrus have an occupational seniority date...not a date of hire, which the former TWA pilots--be they trained to the AA certificate or not--do possess.

You can't be recalled from something you haven't been furloughed from.

All pilots--whether former AA or TWA--would have to undergo "newhire" training if they were off the property long enough. The arbiter f*&$ed it up.

You aren't going to get AA management on board with anything other than first year pay for the flowthrus. Okay, maybe second...but they're going to want their pound of flesh.

As Eagle pilots flowed up shortly after the agreement of Letter 3/Supp W, and former AA pilots (both red and blue) flowed back--the letter worked in both directions.

As AA flowback pilots have realized their actual seniority at Eagle due to the end of of Supp W/Letter 3, the slots for Eagle flowthrus should evaporate as they haven't been hired yet.

stlflyguy

Actually flow throughs DOH is their DOH at Eagle. It doesn't change when they over to AA side of the house. Eagle flowthroughs should be paid TOS for pay and benefits since the TWA "new hires" are paid for there TOS. An example of the inequities like TWA flowbacks were paid there TOS at Eagle yet the Supplement W didn't support that and company gave it to them anyway. The pay provisions didn't continue after Letter 3's expiration. They are going to have to negotiate pay.

You say flow throughs should lose their numbers but your logic is wrong. The flow throughs are not HIRED at AA. They transfer to AA and that is why they keep all company benefits for their DOH and employee numbers.
They are also not slots but seniority like any other AA pilot.
I guess in the arbitrators eyes it came down to what is the difference between a TWA LLC pilot or an Eagle flow through pilot. Both are flying for LLC's at AMR and both have AA seniority numbers. One was a function of a buy out while the other has always worked for AMR.

 

[stlflyguy]

C. A CJ Captain’s (1) placement on the AA Pilots Seniority List (except as
provided in Paragraph III.B. above which is only applicable for placement on
the AA Pilots Seniority List in order to establish an AA occupational seniority
date and number), (2) length of service for pay purposes, and (3) “date of hire”
for pension purposes will be based on the date such pilot is entered on the AA
payroll. Such pilot’s length of service for vacation accrual will be based on the​

cumulative total of the pilot’s service at AMR Eagle, Inc. and AA.

You guys aren't on the payroll yet. You've a place holder, but are not on the payroll.

The other thing is that the TWA pilots came with 188 aircraft. How many are Eagle pilots bringing with them to the AA certificate?

An example of the inequities like TWA flowbacks were paid there TOS at Eagle yet the Supplement W didn't support that and company gave it to them anyway.

G. A furloughed AA pilot’s seniority for bidding purposes at AMR Eagle, Inc. will
be based on length of service at AMR Eagle, Inc. accrued following furlough
from AA. Such pilot’s length of service for pay and benefit purposes shall be
the combined length of service at AA and length of service at AMR Eagle, Inc. accrued following furlough from AA. The only pilot who can displace a furloughed AA pilot from the position of CJ Captain is a more senior furloughed AA pilot.​

No, that was spelled out in the Supplement. No inequities at all as it was agreed upon by the four parties.

The pay provisions didn't continue after Letter 3's expiration. They are going to have to negotiate pay.

And neither should the flow!

The only thing that's clear about this whole situation is that there'll be more arbitrations, lawsuits, etc, to iron this thing out. Best of luck.

stlflyguy

 

[MCDU]

This sounds more and more like the AWA AAA arbitration with the same Arbitraitor. Nicolau. He does not see the big picture and the different dynamics involved in complex issues. He is 85. That says something. American furloughed pilots are getting hosed.

M

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

C. A CJ Captain’s (1) placement on the AA Pilots Seniority List (except as

provided in Paragraph III.B. above which is only applicable for placement on
the AA Pilots Seniority List in order to establish an AA occupational seniority
date and number), (2) length of service for pay purposes, and (3) “date of hire”
for pension purposes will be based on the date such pilot is entered on the AA
payroll. Such pilot’s length of service for vacation accrual will be based on the​

cumulative total of the pilot’s service at AMR Eagle, Inc. and AA.

You guys aren't on the payroll yet. You've a place holder, but are not on the payroll.

How convenient that you can't read the whole sentence of a contract lol
That was an exception of a flow throughs AMR DOH for pay and pension purposes only. That twisted place holder logic has already been tossed into the scrap heap.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

G. A furloughed AA pilot’s seniority for bidding purposes at AMR Eagle, Inc. will

be based on length of service at AMR Eagle, Inc. accrued following furlough
from AA. Such pilot’s length of service for pay and benefit purposes shall be
the combined length of service at AA and length of service at AMR Eagle, Inc. accrued following furlough from AA. The only pilot who can displace a furloughed AA pilot from the position of CJ Captain is a more senior furloughed AA pilot.​

No, that was spelled out in the Supplement. No inequities at all as it was agreed upon by the four parties.

Yet again, it says length of service at AA. Not TWA.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

The only thing that's clear about this whole situation is that there'll be more arbitrations, lawsuits, etc, to iron this thing out. Best of luck.

stlflyguy

True, I am sure the flowthroughs are going to sue for their TOS for pay and benefits since it was given to NEW HIRE TWA pilots.

 

[Neubyfly]

Eagle had 127 pilots flow through (give or take), AA had over 4X that many flow back to the left seat. Not sure where Eagle got the best out of that deal. .

There are 564, or so, flowthroughs who have numbers that will flow. That's 127 plus 564 equals 691. Compare that to the 280 or so Flowbacks that actually flew the line at Eagle and I'd say it was pretty fair. Except for the fact that flowback rights only lasted, at most, 5 years and expired with letter 3 while flowthrough rights last forever and many will have 20 year careers at AA. And let's not forget Eagle STILL has the rights to fly the jets while the APA has no protections anymore.

 

[Neubyfly]

There were just over 400 flying as captain at one time.

Not even close. There were only 313 that took advantage of the flowback. Many of those went straight to MLOA.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

There are 564, or so, flowthroughs who have numbers that will flow. That's 127 plus 564 equals 691. Compare that to the 280 or so Flowbacks that actually flew the line at Eagle and I'd say it was pretty fair. Except for the fact that flowback rights only lasted, at most, 5 years and expired with letter 3 while flowthrough rights last forever and many will have 20 year careers at AA. And let's not forget Eagle STILL has the rights to fly the jets while the APA has no protections anymore.

Eagle should have had around 1500 numbers.
Eagle got 691 total with 127 over the fence.
Flowbacks to Eagle around 400.
TWA had a high number percentage of flowback positions yet it took an arbitration for Eagle to get any numbers form them. I believe we got a total of 154 numbers from TWA addition.
Of course this is all water under the bridge now. We have to look forward to remedy and the future. I have been hearing they might do a double staple to create a master list. It would probably be better just to merge the lists, but I think APA is running scared of lawsuits after Congress changed the merger laws.

 

[thor2j]

There are 564, or so, flowthroughs who have numbers that will flow. That's 127 plus 564 equals 691. Compare that to the 280 or so Flowbacks that actually flew the line at Eagle and I'd say it was pretty fair. Except for the fact that flowback rights only lasted, at most, 5 years and expired with letter 3 while flowthrough rights last forever and many will have 20 year careers at AA. And let's not forget Eagle STILL has the rights to fly the jets while the APA has no protections anymore.

You need to check your numbers, not even close. When it was signed, AA mngmt said that they were not going to hire for "atleast" 18 months and most likely it would be 2 years. Guess, what, they started hiring with in a couple of months. If it had worked as advertised by AA mngmt every AE pilot would of flowed in 5 years. AA Mngmt scammed the thing the whole time. They knew when they would hire and flat out lied in person to many.(which now happens all the time).

Flowthrough was in effect for ten years, not five. Also, there jobs did not expire with letter 3, only there right to hold captain, they still had jobs at AE.

 

[Neubyfly]

You need to check your numbers, not even close. When it was signed, AA mngmt said that they were not going to hire for "atleast" 18 months and most likely it would be 2 years. Guess, what, they started hiring with in a couple of months. If it had worked as advertised by AA mngmt every AE pilot would of flowed in 5 years. AA Mngmt scammed the thing the whole time. They knew when they would hire and flat out lied in person to many.(which now happens all the time).

Flowthrough was in effect for ten years, not five. Also, there jobs did not expire with letter 3, only there right to hold captain, they still had jobs at AE.

My numbers are accurate.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

An item that seems to have escaped mention:

When the flowbacks began, Eagle ALPA started to scream bloody murder and successfully prevented any formerTWA flowbacks for approximately 9 months. Nearly 800 American Airlines (that's what my paycheck said, that's what the release said, and that's what was on the tickets that my passengers bought) pilots were denied their contractual rights to exercise the flowback provisions. APA didn't care because it was all former TWA-ers, and only pursued remedy when it started to affect the natives.

In my humble opinion, you either honor all provisions of the flow agreement or the whole thing is null and void.

VU

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

I don't think they ever contemplated what would happen if they bought another airline or if they actually furloughed. Hell, they couldn't even get straight when they were going to hire. It's safe to say that there will never be another Letter 3 in AMR's history.

 

[Neubyfly]

True, they were on the APA seniority list even though they operated under the TWA certificate- similar to Eagle CAs operating under the Eagle certificate while on the APA seniority list.

.

Actually, more like Eagle and Executive.

 

[XTW]

True, they were on the APA seniority list even though they operated under the TWA certificate- similar to Eagle CAs operating under the Eagle certificate while on the APA seniority list.

Keep in mind that AA/TWA were deemed "single carrier" and operated under the same contract. I don't think that compares to the AA/Eagle relationship at all.