• NC Software is having a Black Friday Sale Event thru December 4th on Logbook Pro, APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook, Cirrus Elite Binders, and more. Use coupon code BF2020 at checkout to redeem 15% off your purchase. Click here to shop now.
  • NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.

AA's new B scale

NAA Pilot

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 20, 2004
Posts
103
Total Time
11,001
I hear that the APA and AA are in discussion to create a new B-scale to keep the eagle flowthroughs away. They are talking about a 10 years b-scale that does not go above $35,000 and no pension for those with less pay seniority then 8 years.

If the APA gives AA this, AA will give the APA "Length of Service" to all those furloughed.
 
Last edited:

Diesel-9

Well-known member
Joined
May 1, 2005
Posts
527
Total Time
18,885
My God! AA starting the "B" Scale a second time? Here we go again. Will it ever end?
 

aa73

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 12, 2004
Posts
2,075
Total Time
10K
There is absolutely no truth to that. Care to cite your sources, NAA?
 

pipejockey

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 7, 2003
Posts
1,041
Total Time
0-9000
Why are these AA guys so anti Eagle flow throughs? Didn't about 400 AA furloughs (about 1/3 of the Eagle CA total) take advantage of the flowback to Eagle thus avoiding being thrown out on the street? Didn't these Eagle CA's with numbers, all of whom have been with the company for nearly 20 years, get their AA numbers fairly and squarely nearly 10 years ago? And should they now not be given the opportunity to work at AA where it has to be better than Eagle? Anybody who works there care to respond?
 

pipejockey

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 7, 2003
Posts
1,041
Total Time
0-9000
Because arbitrations have determined that those flow-thrus should get class dates before all AA furloughees have been recalled.

Ok, but I thought it was based on when a pilot got his AA seniority number. Since an Eagle captain got his number when he upgraded to RJ captain and had to put 2 years in the left seat of the RJ before going to AA, he would have been placed ahead of many of the TWA guys plus all of the AA hires that were hired while the Eagle pilot was doing his 2 year seat lock. Whats the big deal anyway, I have heard it's only about 200 Eagle guys. Thats like 2.5% of your total pilot workforce. Geez. Just for comparison, weren't there like 400 AA guys flow back to Eagle as Captains, thus saving them from getting furloughed. 400 guys who went to the top half of a seniority list of about 2700. Thats a big difference from 200 guys going to the bottom part of an 8500 pilot workforce.
 
Last edited:

aa73

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 12, 2004
Posts
2,075
Total Time
10K
Pipejockey,

Simple. Eagle CAs have never flown a day in their life at AA. Furloughed AA pilots have, whether they're AA or TWA. As such, the arbiTRAITOR's ruling is ridiculous. ALL AA pilots should be recalled before ANY Eagle flowthrough gets a class date. I don't give a shee-it about when their "seniority number" was awarded. The way Nicolau ruled, Eagle pilots who never flew for AA get first crack at a recall class while AA/TWA pilots FURLOUGHED FROM THEIR OWN AIRLINE have to wait. Oh, don't forget, these very same furloughed AA pilots were counted towards the 7300 "employed pilots" floor - while furloughed! Total BS. That is all.

73
 

steveg

JXCAP 49281
Joined
Mar 1, 2003
Posts
228
Total Time
9k+
Now all the flow backs have been booted out of the Captain seats because sup W expired, but the Eagle guys still want to flow up, yeah that's fair. AA still has close to 2000 guys on the street that actually flew for AA, many of whom are unemployed and really need to get back to work. Yet the Eagle Captains want to come onboard in front of them, clearly a violation of the AA contract. Way to go Eagle, greed and entitlement know no limits.
 

AA717driver

A simpler time...
Joined
Mar 27, 2003
Posts
4,911
Total Time
+/-13k
One problem is we have a bucket of arbitrations, not all by the same arbitrator. Even so, each previous arbitration is considered the law of the land in subsequent arbitrations.

THE problem here is that way back in a previous decision, the arbitrator took a snippet from the AA ops manual describing the full course required to bring a pilot on to the AA certificate as "new hire training". So, he determined that ANY pilot going through that course of study to be brought on to the AA operating certificate was "a new hire".

Now, that became law and when the Eagle MEC grieved the flowthroughs not being given class dates when the former TWA pilots got recalled from furlough (side by side with non-TWA, REAL AA, Native pilots who were one number senior or junior to the former TWA pilot they were sitting next to in class) the arbitrator locked on to that passage from the previous arbitration and we are where we are.

The lunacy of the law dictates that recall classes full of people who have had AA employee numbers since Dec. 2, 2001 are "new hires" when they return from furlough in 2007.

AND, it ignores a recent arbitration that declared that ALL pilots on a seniority list--even those who have not attended "new hire training" per the AA manual ARE in fact to be considered "employed" for the purposes of an arbitration considering the 7300 pilot floor and the disposition of Eagle.

It is a bucket of worms--no, a bucket of feces and it may well go to court to sort it out.

TC
 

Flyby1206

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2004
Posts
1,088
Total Time
enuff
Why are these AA guys so anti Eagle flow throughs? Didn't about 400 AA furloughs (about 1/3 of the Eagle CA total) take advantage of the flowback to Eagle thus avoiding being thrown out on the street? Didn't these Eagle CA's with numbers, all of whom have been with the company for nearly 20 years, get their AA numbers fairly and squarely nearly 10 years ago? And should they now not be given the opportunity to work at AA where it has to be better than Eagle? Anybody who works there care to respond?

You are correct that about 400 pilots chose the flowback option (while many more were actually offered the position and turned it down). Many of the flowback CAs were ex-TWA (and a great bunch of guys) but never spent a day at AA before coming to Eagle. They even received longevity pay based on their TWA DOH which put many near the top of the Eagle payscale.

Whether or not we agree with any of the arbitrations that have already been ruled upon it is time to quit the f*cking b*tching and make the most of the situation.
 

MCDU

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 9, 2003
Posts
1,146
Total Time
21987
Pipejockey,

Simple. Eagle CAs have never flown a day in their life at AA. Furloughed AA pilots have, whether they're AA or TWA. As such, the arbiTRAITOR's ruling is ridiculous. ALL AA pilots should be recalled before ANY Eagle flowthrough gets a class date. I don't give a shee-it about when their "seniority number" was awarded. The way Nicolau ruled, Eagle pilots who never flew for AA get first crack at a recall class while AA/TWA pilots FURLOUGHED FROM THEIR OWN AIRLINE have to wait. Oh, don't forget, these very same furloughed AA pilots were counted towards the 7300 "employed pilots" floor - while furloughed! Total BS. That is all.

73

Nicolau strikes again!

M
 

aa73

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 12, 2004
Posts
2,075
Total Time
10K
Many of the flowback CAs were ex-TWA (and a great bunch of guys) but never spent a day at AA before coming to Eagle.

Not an accurate statement... All TWA pilots were actively at AA (albeit flying under the TWA certificate) when the first furloughs in Oct 2001 hit.

73
 

Flyby1206

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2004
Posts
1,088
Total Time
enuff
Not an accurate statement... All TWA pilots were actively at AA (albeit flying under the TWA certificate) when the first furloughs in Oct 2001 hit.

73

True, they were on the APA seniority list even though they operated under the TWA certificate- similar to Eagle CAs operating under the Eagle certificate while on the APA seniority list.

It wasn't up to you or I to decide how this whole debacle would be solved since it was sent to arbitration. Looking at APAs recent history of cases I would avoid any future arbitration at all costs. A negotiated solution is always better than an arbitrated one.
 

aa73

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 12, 2004
Posts
2,075
Total Time
10K
True, they were on the APA seniority list even though they operated under the TWA certificate- similar to Eagle CAs operating under the Eagle certificate while on the APA seniority list.

It wasn't up to you or I to decide how this whole debacle would be solved since it was sent to arbitration. Looking at APAs recent history of cases I would avoid any future arbitration at all costs. A negotiated solution is always better than an arbitrated one.

That's not the point. What I'm getting at is, they were officially AA pilots as of April 10, 2001. They were furloughed from AA, not TWA. They should be recalled to AA before anyone who was never at AA. Eagle pilots with AA seniority numbers were never at AA. Why should they be recalled first? Just because they have a pseudo seniority number?

I agree, it's not up to you nor I to decide. But I think it's fair to say we have two very different opinions on how it should have come out.

73
 

Flyby1206

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2004
Posts
1,088
Total Time
enuff
I agree, it's not up to you nor I to decide. But I think it's fair to say we have two very different opinions on how it should have come out.

73

On the contrary, I dont believe it is right for employed Eagle CAs to flow before unemployeed AA/TWA furloughees who have been on the street for years. Like I said though, you and I didnt get to make that decision. My original post was directed at those who were saying Eagle pilots had no right to flow period.
 

macdu

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
Posts
276
Total Time
?
Another point is the flowbacks were only temporary. They were never going to stay and permanently take a spot on the list. You knew(know)that. This is a flow to a permanent, to retirement position. Very different.
 

AA717driver

A simpler time...
Joined
Mar 27, 2003
Posts
4,911
Total Time
+/-13k
Anyone up for "Baseball-style Arbitration" to resolve Sec. 6 negotiations?

Anyone?


TC
 

100 c.i.

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 12, 2006
Posts
113
Total Time
8000
Although I dont believe any of these eagle will be on the property before AA completes its recall in 2-3 years, its black and white in the contract(all flowthroughs come in after the last AAnative is recalled) period. Again the bottom 300 on forlough are clearly AA pilots not TWA and will be called in sen. order. Besides why in the hell would these guys want to come over anyway at best 1 or 3rd year pay to sit reserve probably out of base and get treated like a contract breaking commuter puke? I am already hearing no legs or beers for eagle job robbers. I say make every one of them come over and get a taste of it. Good luck eaglets......
 

pipejockey

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 7, 2003
Posts
1,041
Total Time
0-9000
Besides why in the hell would these guys want to come over anyway at best 1 or 3rd year pay to sit reserve probably out of base and get treated like a contract breaking commuter puke? I am already hearing no legs or beers for eagle job robbers. I say make every one of them come over and get a taste of it. Good luck eaglets......

Maybe because the Eagle guys that got their AA numbers years before 9-11 and were merely doing their 2 year seat lock at Eagle will be line holders as they will be placed higher up on the seniority list than all those hired at AA AFTER the Eagle guy got his number. Like I said in another thread where there is yet another mainline against regional pilot argument, why not come up with a payscale that will allow ALL flying done for an airline be done by that pilots workforce! There will be many growing pains, but it couldnt be worse than whats going on now with pilots flying 100+ seaters against pilots flying less than 100 seats. Thats what it comes down to folks. Grow up!! Management is making a mockery of us and they love it! We must be the butt end of all of their jokes they tell at their overpriced luncheons.
 
Top