AA's new B scale

[pipejockey]

Not intended that way, but that contract has made eagle the highest paid 50 seat jet operator,

Say what?? Horizon pays their dash 8 pilots more than eagle pilots are getting on the 50 seat jet. Those eagle rates are shameful, just as all the other rj rates are as well as most mainline rates.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Say what?? Horizon pays their dash 8 pilots more than eagle pilots are getting on the 50 seat jet. Those eagle rates are shameful, just as all the other rj rates are as well as most mainline rates.

Rates or W2?

 

[michael707767]

Seems to me as an outsider looking in that the AA pilots enjoyed the rights and privledges of the flow through when things were moving backward. As a result of the flow through there are some Eagle pilots with AA numbers. As AA needs pilots, they will fill the classes based on the names on the seniority list. To me it doesn't matter how a pilot got on that list. He/she is there and they should come to class in seniority order.

You can't take the good of a flow through, which was AA pilots getting to fly at Eagle during the bad times, without accepting the bad, which is Eagle guys coming to class ahead of some furlough recalls.

 

[TWA Dude]

You can't take the good of a flow through, which was AA pilots getting to fly at Eagle during the bad times, without accepting the bad, which is Eagle guys coming to class ahead of some furlough recalls.

This isn't a case of sour grapes about flow-through's rights to come to AA. They're entitled to come. It's about the contract language which states the flow-throughs come when there are newhire classes, not furlough recalls. The arbitrator interpreted recallees as equivalent to newhires and that's what AA pilots find objectionable.

 

[pipejockey]

Rates or W2?

Rez, please lets not split hairs. The pay sucks all around!


As far as this Eagle, AA thing. What if the Eagle pilots who have now been given rights to sit in recall classes along with those returning from furlough, were to be offered class dates after all AA furloughs have been offered class dates. Allowing Eagle flow throughs to attend class at AA before those bypassing are given a second recall notice. Would that be an acceptable compromise?

 

[thor2j]

Say what?? Horizon pays their dash 8 pilots more than eagle pilots are getting on the 50 seat jet. Those eagle rates are shameful, just as all the other rj rates are as well as most mainline rates.

Read what, oh that's right you didn't. Last I checked Horizon doesnt have any 50 seat jets. So you are definetly in the wrong business since nobody makes anything near what you consider not "shameless."

 

[BigMotorToter]

Seems to me as an outsider looking in that the AA pilots enjoyed the rights and privledges of the flow through when things were moving backward. As a result of the flow through there are some Eagle pilots with AA numbers. As AA needs pilots, they will fill the classes based on the names on the seniority list. To me it doesn't matter how a pilot got on that list. He/she is there and they should come to class in seniority order.

You can't take the good of a flow through, which was AA pilots getting to fly at Eagle during the bad times, without accepting the bad, which is Eagle guys coming to class ahead of some furlough recalls.

As usual, if your not part of it you don't know the facts. It wasn't all a one way deal until now. Many Eagle pilots flowed up to AA BEFORE times got bad. Eagle pilots were flowing up to AA since 1996 or 1997. FIVE years later 9/11 happens and now it's time for the Eagle pilots to live up to there side of the deal. They go F'ing nuts about AA pilots flowing back and many AA pilots are treated like sh!t, but too bad it was part of the deal. Then Supp W. expires and AA pilots lose there Captain seats but Eagle pilots already at AA stay (which they should) but then Eagle pilots who NEVER completed the flow up (supp W.) still keep those rights. What the F-uck is that!

If Supp. W. expiration is why the AA pilots lost their Capt. seats at Eagle then any Eagle pilot with a flow up number should lose that as well due to the same reason. You can't have it both ways.

Also in my earlier post I was just passing on info that I personally encountered. If some of you don't believe it then that is your choice, just don't act surprised when you are treated like a scab the rest of your career if you take advantage of this retarded ruling.

Oh, this just doesn't affect ex-TWA pilots. This affects down to seniority number 7559, which is mostly Native pilots. Some will be refurloughed because of this, some will go from wide body to narrow body because of this, some will go from line holder to reserve because of this. Bottom line, thousands of pilots will be affected negatively because of this (less pay, less QOL etc...) and if Eagle pilots think there going to just throw a big welcoming party for them and forget about it then they are severely out of touch with how pissed the AA pilots are about this.

 

[pipejockey]

Read what, oh that's right you didn't. Last I checked Horizon doesnt have any 50 seat jets. So you are definetly in the wrong business since nobody makes anything near what you consider not "shameless."

Obviously if Horizon had 50 seat jets, they would pay more than they do for the dash 8. And since their Dash 8 pays more than any eagle 50 seat rate, if they did have 50 seat jets they would be well above the eagle rates. You can understand that don't you? Horizon even pays dash 8 FO's that can hold crj fo, the crj rate which would be around 45 an hour. About 15 an hour shy of what I would not consider shameless.

Now, back to AA, TWA, and Eagle folks bickering like some soap opera, when they should be joining forces to fight management.

 

[pipejockey]

As usual, if your not part of it you don't know the facts. It wasn't all a one way deal until now. Many Eagle pilots flowed up to AA BEFORE times got bad. Eagle pilots were flowing up to AA since 1996 or 1997.

Umm, you seem to be a part of it but even you don't know the facts. An Eagle pilot only qualified for flow through AFTER spending what I heard was about an 18 month seat lock which turned into 24 months shortly thereafter. So since Eagle didn't get their first Jet until 1998, then sometime mid 1999 was when the very first Eagle pilot qualified to flow. Not 1996 or 1997.

Oh, this just doesn't affect ex-TWA pilots. This affects down to seniority number 7559, which is mostly Native pilots. Some will be refurloughed because of this, some will go from wide body to narrow body because of this, some will go from line holder to reserve because of this. Bottom line, thousands of pilots will be affected negatively because of this (less pay, less QOL etc...)

THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY FALLING!! Wow, you are quite the drama queen aren't you? The ruling affects about 300 Eagle Pilots which would represent about 3.5% to 4% of your workforce. Didn't AA announce some capacity increases for the upcoming spring schedule? The economy is slowly improving, I doubt their will be any more contraction in the near future. And besides, this ruling doesn't mean 300 Eagle pilots are just going to appear over there at AA. There now needs to be a remedy negotiated between the 4 parties from what I have heard. Which means if you guys can offer the Eagle pilots something that would be worth their while to wait until all your folks have been offered recall, then I am sure you all can hug and sing Kumbaya, ok maybe at least shake hands.

 

[Flightdawg]

Umm, you seem to be a part of it but even you don't know the facts. An Eagle pilot only qualified for flow through AFTER spending what I heard was about an 18 month seat lock which turned into 24 months shortly thereafter. So since Eagle didn't get their first Jet until 1998, then sometime mid 1999 was when the very first Eagle pilot qualified to flow. Not 1996 or 1997.

Correct. Some were deliberately held back the the company but that wasn't APA's fault. Only about 150 pilots flowed to AA before 9/11. About 550 AA pilots flowed back to Eagle.

Most Eagle pilots with numbers are too old to have a desire to flow. Average age is about 55 for the first 200. Why would they want to give up $100,000 W2 to make first or second year pay at AA then retire 2-5 years later? They would make more money staying at Eagle those last few years.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

Kiss system.

Flowbacks had SUPER SENIORITY at Eagle that permitted them to be CA's
Letter 3 expired, SUPER SENIORITY expired after displacement bid.
Flowbacks have AA seniority and AE seniority now
Flowthroughs have AA seniority and AE seniority now.

A 20++ year TWA flowback goes to AA. He receives new hire training.
A 20++ year AE flow through goes to AA. He receives new hire training.

How do you expect an arbitrator to rule anything different?

Don't you just love the Kiss system.

On another note, it was APA that didn't ratify the settlement TA that gave all furloughs first chance to go to AA. You can thank them for this mess we have now.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

Correct. Some were deliberately held back the the company but that wasn't APA's fault. Only about 150 pilots flowed to AA before 9/11. About 550 AA pilots flowed back to Eagle.

Most Eagle pilots with numbers are too old to have a desire to flow. Average age is about 55 for the first 200. Why would they want to give up $100,000 W2 to make first or second year pay at AA then retire 2-5 years later? They would make more money staying at Eagle those last few years.

Good point. A friend of mine at Eagle is a CRJ CA and would probably be around 50th to flow. He made 152K last year and is on pace to make 157K this year. I doubt very seriously he wants to go to AA now and take a big pay cut.

 

[pipejockey]

Why would they want to give up $100,000 W2 to make first or second year pay at AA then retire 2-5 years later? They would make more money staying at Eagle those last few years.

Yes, but with this ruling entitling Eagle pilots to sit in classes at AA with recalls, and APA being radically opposed to it, I think as part of the remedy should be that Eagle pilots agree to wait to go over after all AA pilots have been offered recall but at the pay their AA seniority number would allow. It's all about give and take. APA doesn't want Eagle flowthroughs to go over before a furloughed pilot, and Eagle pilots don't want to go over at that ridiculous first year pay. I mean after all, I heard from folks over there that a couple years ago there was an agreement that would have given any Eagle pilot who became CA prior to May of 2008 an AA number and flowthroughs would start at 2nd year pay with an extra 15 grand in year 1 and 2. But APA nixed it over 25 CRJ's options Eagle had that it turns out they are getting anyway. I don't even think ALPA could have done a worse job for the AA pilots than the APA did on that one.

 

[Cleared Direct]

FTR, aa73 is not a former TWA pilot. He is a "native" that happens to look at things rationally.


X

I know who he is, and he knows who I am. My intension was not to imply that he was a former TWA pilot. I was responding to his comment about 18 year ex TWA LLC pilots. He is definitely a more rational thinking AA pilot then most.

What counts though is the rationality of the arbiter. Now lets see how rational APA is during the next 90 days during the 4 party talks to attempt a remedy on this opinion and award. My skewed irrational opinion says there will be no agreement and back to the arbiter it goes. But what do I know? I have been watching this 4 party dysfunctional relationship for over 20 years.

 

[Cleared Direct]

As usual, if your not part of it you don't know the facts. It wasn't all a one way deal until now. Many Eagle pilots flowed up to AA BEFORE times got bad. Eagle pilots were flowing up to AA since 1996 or 1997. FIVE years later 9/11 happens and now it's time for the Eagle pilots to live up to there side of the deal. They go F'ing nuts about AA pilots flowing back and many AA pilots are treated like sh!t, but too bad it was part of the deal. Then Supp W. expires and AA pilots lose there Captain seats but Eagle pilots already at AA stay (which they should) but then Eagle pilots who NEVER completed the flow up (supp W.) still keep those rights. What the F-uck is that!

If Supp. W. expiration is why the AA pilots lost their Capt. seats at Eagle then any Eagle pilot with a flow up number should lose that as well due to the same reason. You can't have it both ways.

Also in my earlier post I was just passing on info that I personally encountered. If some of you don't believe it then that is your choice, just don't act surprised when you are treated like a scab the rest of your career if you take advantage of this retarded ruling.

Oh, this just doesn't affect ex-TWA pilots. This affects down to seniority number 7559, which is mostly Native pilots. Some will be refurloughed because of this, some will go from wide body to narrow body because of this, some will go from line holder to reserve because of this. Bottom line, thousands of pilots will be affected negatively because of this (less pay, less QOL etc...) and if Eagle pilots think there going to just throw a big welcoming party for them and forget about it then they are severely out of touch with how pissed the AA pilots are about this.

You are part of it and you obviously do not know the facts. That is the problem with misinformation.

As already pointed out by others your dates are way off. Funny how you have Eagle pilots flowing to AA before we have the RJs.

Eagle pilots were assigned AA seniority numbers that don't expire just like yours. They even finished their 2 year lock in almost a decade ago just waiting for a new hire class. Now that Letter 3/ Supp W is over their AA number goes away? Wrong, and the arbiter agrees. They were assigned numbers on the bottom of AA's seniority list and they don't just go away. The flowback's "super seniority" at Eagle went away after the expiration of Letter3/Supp W because that is what it provides for in the contract. They revert to their Eagle seniority, which they have been accruing concurrently. It has nothing to do with the flow thru Eagle pilot's AA seniority number that was assigned to him on the bottom of the AA seniority list.

Your quoted seniority number that it affects is wrong also. Check APA latest seniority list. Actually, it shows the most senior AA number for a Flow Thru pilot to be #6530. This is still to be resolved.

You claim AA pilots will be furloughed because of this, and others displaced. You might want to tell the arbiter and the 4 parties because they don't know this.

 

[aa73]

I know who he is, and he knows who I am. My intension was not to imply that he was a former TWA pilot. I was responding to his comment about 18 year ex TWA LLC pilots. He is definitely a more rational thinking AA pilot then most.

CD,

I wouldn't happen to owe you a few beers at a certain Hooters, do I? If so, then I know you too.

Thanks for the comments, both you and X.

73

 

[Neubyfly]

The number of AA pilots that flowed back was no where near 500. At it's highest, 284 AA pilots were active at Eagle. The number of about 500 was due to many who opted to flowback but quit before or during training and, MLOA pilots.

 

[thor2j]

The number of AA pilots that flowed back was no where near 500. At it's highest, 284 AA pilots were active at Eagle. The number of about 500 was due to many who opted to flowback but quit before or during training and, MLOA pilots.

There were just over 400 flying as captain at one time.

 

[Flightdawg]

Yes, but with this ruling entitling Eagle pilots to sit in classes at AA with recalls, and APA being radically opposed to it, I think as part of the remedy should be that Eagle pilots agree to wait to go over after all AA pilots have been offered recall but at the pay their AA seniority number would allow.

That'd be nice, but you won't know until the remedy is either agreed upon or set by the arbiter.

 

[stlflyguy]

Flowthrus have an occupational seniority date...not a date of hire, which the former TWA pilots--be they trained to the AA certificate or not--do possess.

You can't be recalled from something you haven't been furloughed from.

All pilots--whether former AA or TWA--would have to undergo "newhire" training if they were off the property long enough. The arbiter f*&$ed it up.

You aren't going to get AA management on board with anything other than first year pay for the flowthrus. Okay, maybe second...but they're going to want their pound of flesh.

As Eagle pilots flowed up shortly after the agreement of Letter 3/Supp W, and former AA pilots (both red and blue) flowed back--the letter worked in both directions.

As AA flowback pilots have realized their actual seniority at Eagle due to the end of of Supp W/Letter 3, the slots for Eagle flowthrus should evaporate as they haven't been hired yet.

stlflyguy