AA's new B scale

[aa73]

I know who he is, and he knows who I am. My intension was not to imply that he was a former TWA pilot. I was responding to his comment about 18 year ex TWA LLC pilots. He is definitely a more rational thinking AA pilot then most.

CD,

I wouldn't happen to owe you a few beers at a certain Hooters, do I? If so, then I know you too.

Thanks for the comments, both you and X.

73

 

[Neubyfly]

The number of AA pilots that flowed back was no where near 500. At it's highest, 284 AA pilots were active at Eagle. The number of about 500 was due to many who opted to flowback but quit before or during training and, MLOA pilots.

 

[thor2j]

The number of AA pilots that flowed back was no where near 500. At it's highest, 284 AA pilots were active at Eagle. The number of about 500 was due to many who opted to flowback but quit before or during training and, MLOA pilots.

There were just over 400 flying as captain at one time.

 

[Flightdawg]

Yes, but with this ruling entitling Eagle pilots to sit in classes at AA with recalls, and APA being radically opposed to it, I think as part of the remedy should be that Eagle pilots agree to wait to go over after all AA pilots have been offered recall but at the pay their AA seniority number would allow.

That'd be nice, but you won't know until the remedy is either agreed upon or set by the arbiter.

 

[stlflyguy]

Flowthrus have an occupational seniority date...not a date of hire, which the former TWA pilots--be they trained to the AA certificate or not--do possess.

You can't be recalled from something you haven't been furloughed from.

All pilots--whether former AA or TWA--would have to undergo "newhire" training if they were off the property long enough. The arbiter f*&$ed it up.

You aren't going to get AA management on board with anything other than first year pay for the flowthrus. Okay, maybe second...but they're going to want their pound of flesh.

As Eagle pilots flowed up shortly after the agreement of Letter 3/Supp W, and former AA pilots (both red and blue) flowed back--the letter worked in both directions.

As AA flowback pilots have realized their actual seniority at Eagle due to the end of of Supp W/Letter 3, the slots for Eagle flowthrus should evaporate as they haven't been hired yet.

stlflyguy

 

[glasspilot]

Viewed in the light of this mess I say give DOH to everybody. AA merges with TWA...DOH intergration. Sucks for junior AA guys but those TWA guys didn't do anything wrong and they do have the experience.

Eagle guys in the flow through? DOH...Eagle DOH as Eagle is an AA property. Line everybody up and put 'em to work. Furlough who you need and train who you must. But DOH makes it very easy. I know feelings will get hurt but it makes the most sense.

I know that will never happen. It's what is right, but will never happen.

God it would make it all sooooo easy too, but will never happen...

 

[FO 4 Life]

Eagle had 127 pilots flow through (give or take), AA had over 4X that many flow back to the left seat. Not sure where Eagle got the best out of that deal. When I downgraded for the second time, my entire class was TWA guys and a furlough AA instructor was teaching. TWA guys were great but everybody was whining about their situation.

Yeah, I felt their pain about going to the top of the pay scale and flying left seat. Nothing personal, just business.

 

[stlflyguy]

Where did numbers of flowthrus vs. flowbacks come into this? Did I miss the part in the Supp/Letter that stated that the numbers would be even?

stlflyguy

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

Where did numbers of flowthrus vs. flowbacks come into this? Did I miss the part in the Supp/Letter that stated that the numbers would be even?

stlflyguy

Well sort of. The agreement was designed for Eagle to have half of the new hire positions at AA. In effect, if Eagle had gotten half of the new hire slots like they were supposed to have had then most of the flowbacks would have been former Eagle CA's. Once the Eagle CA received his number at AA he was required to finish his lock in at AE. It is painfully obvious that while an arbitrator ruled the flow through couldn't be recalled, the flow through pilots seniority is the same as any other AA pilot.

 

[Flightdawg]

Where did numbers of flowthrus vs. flowbacks come into this? Did I miss the part in the Supp/Letter that stated that the numbers would be even?

It was in the section where TWA pilots were part of the flowback.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

Flowthrus have an occupational seniority date...not a date of hire, which the former TWA pilots--be they trained to the AA certificate or not--do possess.

You can't be recalled from something you haven't been furloughed from.

All pilots--whether former AA or TWA--would have to undergo "newhire" training if they were off the property long enough. The arbiter f*&$ed it up.

You aren't going to get AA management on board with anything other than first year pay for the flowthrus. Okay, maybe second...but they're going to want their pound of flesh.

As Eagle pilots flowed up shortly after the agreement of Letter 3/Supp W, and former AA pilots (both red and blue) flowed back--the letter worked in both directions.

As AA flowback pilots have realized their actual seniority at Eagle due to the end of of Supp W/Letter 3, the slots for Eagle flowthrus should evaporate as they haven't been hired yet.

stlflyguy

Actually flow throughs DOH is their DOH at Eagle. It doesn't change when they over to AA side of the house. Eagle flowthroughs should be paid TOS for pay and benefits since the TWA "new hires" are paid for there TOS. An example of the inequities like TWA flowbacks were paid there TOS at Eagle yet the Supplement W didn't support that and company gave it to them anyway. The pay provisions didn't continue after Letter 3's expiration. They are going to have to negotiate pay.

You say flow throughs should lose their numbers but your logic is wrong. The flow throughs are not HIRED at AA. They transfer to AA and that is why they keep all company benefits for their DOH and employee numbers.
They are also not slots but seniority like any other AA pilot.
I guess in the arbitrators eyes it came down to what is the difference between a TWA LLC pilot or an Eagle flow through pilot. Both are flying for LLC's at AMR and both have AA seniority numbers. One was a function of a buy out while the other has always worked for AMR.

 

[stlflyguy]

C. A CJ Captain’s (1) placement on the AA Pilots Seniority List (except as
provided in Paragraph III.B. above which is only applicable for placement on
the AA Pilots Seniority List in order to establish an AA occupational seniority
date and number), (2) length of service for pay purposes, and (3) “date of hire”
for pension purposes will be based on the date such pilot is entered on the AA
payroll. Such pilot’s length of service for vacation accrual will be based on the​

cumulative total of the pilot’s service at AMR Eagle, Inc. and AA.

You guys aren't on the payroll yet. You've a place holder, but are not on the payroll.

The other thing is that the TWA pilots came with 188 aircraft. How many are Eagle pilots bringing with them to the AA certificate?

An example of the inequities like TWA flowbacks were paid there TOS at Eagle yet the Supplement W didn't support that and company gave it to them anyway.

G. A furloughed AA pilot’s seniority for bidding purposes at AMR Eagle, Inc. will
be based on length of service at AMR Eagle, Inc. accrued following furlough
from AA. Such pilot’s length of service for pay and benefit purposes shall be
the combined length of service at AA and length of service at AMR Eagle, Inc. accrued following furlough from AA. The only pilot who can displace a furloughed AA pilot from the position of CJ Captain is a more senior furloughed AA pilot.​

No, that was spelled out in the Supplement. No inequities at all as it was agreed upon by the four parties.

The pay provisions didn't continue after Letter 3's expiration. They are going to have to negotiate pay.

And neither should the flow!

The only thing that's clear about this whole situation is that there'll be more arbitrations, lawsuits, etc, to iron this thing out. Best of luck.

stlflyguy

 

[MCDU]

This sounds more and more like the AWA AAA arbitration with the same Arbitraitor. Nicolau. He does not see the big picture and the different dynamics involved in complex issues. He is 85. That says something. American furloughed pilots are getting hosed.

M

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

C. A CJ Captain’s (1) placement on the AA Pilots Seniority List (except as

provided in Paragraph III.B. above which is only applicable for placement on
the AA Pilots Seniority List in order to establish an AA occupational seniority
date and number), (2) length of service for pay purposes, and (3) “date of hire”
for pension purposes will be based on the date such pilot is entered on the AA
payroll. Such pilot’s length of service for vacation accrual will be based on the​

cumulative total of the pilot’s service at AMR Eagle, Inc. and AA.

You guys aren't on the payroll yet. You've a place holder, but are not on the payroll.

How convenient that you can't read the whole sentence of a contract lol
That was an exception of a flow throughs AMR DOH for pay and pension purposes only. That twisted place holder logic has already been tossed into the scrap heap.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

G. A furloughed AA pilot’s seniority for bidding purposes at AMR Eagle, Inc. will

be based on length of service at AMR Eagle, Inc. accrued following furlough
from AA. Such pilot’s length of service for pay and benefit purposes shall be
the combined length of service at AA and length of service at AMR Eagle, Inc. accrued following furlough from AA. The only pilot who can displace a furloughed AA pilot from the position of CJ Captain is a more senior furloughed AA pilot.​

No, that was spelled out in the Supplement. No inequities at all as it was agreed upon by the four parties.

Yet again, it says length of service at AA. Not TWA.