AA/USAir non SLI?

[slaquer5]

I have not followed this fight for years. I now find it interesting, as I think the outcome will set a precedent for other airlines to follow.

An example would be, what if DAL bought SWA. It goes to arbitration, the DAL pilots do not like the results, so they pull a USAPA.

Any airline could have been used, SWA buying someone smaller ect.....

If USAPA pulls this off, I think it will be the wave of the future for all mergers.

 

[sean67]

I have not followed this fight for years. I now find it interesting, as I think the outcome will set a precedent for other airlines to follow.

An example would be, what if DAL bought SWA. It goes to arbitration, the DAL pilots do not like the results, so they pull a USAPA.

Any airline could have been used, SWA buying someone smaller ect.....

If USAPA pulls this off, I think it will be the wave of the future for all mergers.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but SWA has a rap sheet of placing it's merged airlines at the bottom??

 

[Bringupthebird]

It's gonna be a re do. Keep dreaming. Funny how' all the uncomfortable questions now are if PHX will survive. Goes to prove that AW's
demise was just behind US.LAS dead...PHX ... The next PIT.. Dead. I really get sick of the "white knight" crap from the west pilots.

It will be another arbitrated award, I agree, but far from a re-do. As soon as USAPA slaps down two lists, they have defied an arbitrators ruling and the courts can and will step in to preserve both the rights of the west pilots and the integrity of the arbitration process.

My best guess is that USAPA at the last minute will say "Yep, it's the NIC, sorry guys we helped who we could, tough luck."

You aren't connecting the dots. LAS closed as a result of the US merger and the lack of a need for a night bank of flights to position aircraft to the east coast for AM departures. US's demise would have helped AW, not hurt it. No one likes to admit that Parker's comments on the likelihood of AW going into bankruptcy never took into account the rising tide of losing a weak competitor (US east).

 

[sean67]

A re-do? Can you do that on a divorce settlement also? How about at Judge Judy? Can you take your money back if you lose it all at poker at a casino? You Easties just don't seem to understand, and it will cost you.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Hey dork... Get a life and get a girlfriend. You've posted more on OUR subject matter than anyone else. Wow, I really thought DAL had good hiring standards. You have obviously snuck a quick one on them.

 

[Crzipilot]

Arbitrated ruling....which was part of an internal union process. Of which such union no longer exists on property. So that internal process is not longer required.

It's WAS not a federally mandaged arbitration such as MB or any other...

 

[Bringupthebird]

Arbitrated ruling....which was part of an internal union process. Of which such union no longer exists on property. So that internal process is not longer required.

It's WAS not a federally mandaged arbitration such as MB or any other...

Sorry, the union was only the representitive of the parties and the parties are still very much here (for better or worse). Those parties will be held responsible for the award, regardless of their representitive.

Furthermore, arbitration is widely used to reconcile disputes between private parties and the courts will not allow precedent that jeopardizes such a widely used and legally enforced practice.

 

[sean67]

Sorry, the union was only the representitive of the parties and the parties are still very much here (for better or worse). Those parties will be held responsible for the award, regardless of their representitive.

Furthermore, arbitration is widely used to reconcile disputes between private parties and the courts will not allow precedent that jeopardizes such a widely used and legally enforced practice.

Bird
I'm guessing that you are one of the post 2000 w no college degree hires at Msa Grande that wants the windfall...do you really think APA wants a 2003 hire senior to an 88 hire??? Roll over and give GL a kiss, maybe that will heal you

 

[slaquer5]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but SWA has a rap sheet of placing it's merged airlines at the bottom??

Correct me if I am wrong. None where decided by a Judge or an arbitrator .

I might be wrong, so feel to correct me.

Sidebar. What is APAs stance on all of this?As I think they will be the ones driving this .

 

[Turtle21]

Can we get a cut and paste link to these Scott Kirby quotes?

Not possible since the video is posted on an internal company website. But suffice it to say that Kirby simply said "No." in response to a long winded West pilot plea to agree that the company will use the Nic at the POR approval.

All folks need to realize is that the pilots have signed, sealed, and delivered a new seniority integration agreement, a New American seniority integration plan, a new SLI policy that replaces the old ones, effective at the POR. It is exactly what Crandall said needed to occur for him to support a merger.

Listen carefully.. start at 2:10... he says seniority integration agreement, and seniority integration plan... but never once says "list".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mJUyYskVYI

He has it, contingent on the POR approval.

 

[Carl S.]

Sean67...are you a angry 99-01 hire or a third lister drinking the kool aid of out of order upgrades delay game? Thanks for trying to paint all AWA pilots as Beech 1900 F/O's that hit the USAirways lottery when we tied up with your POS airline. STFU about your military duty...lots of us have served and do not brag about it on this web board...Wait till the APA pilots treats you like a red headed step child...karma is a b*tch...

P.S.- if you believe Kirby ..he is playing you, read the company's court filings for what is under oath and not water cooler scuttlebutt...

 

[sean67]

Correct me if I am wrong. None where decided by a Judge or an arbitrator .

I might be wrong, so feel to correct me.

Sidebar. What is APAs stance on all of this?As I think they will be the ones driving this .

Morris and Air Tran... Was it a fair integration??

 

[Turtle21]

Sean67...are you a angry 99-01 hire or a third lister drinking the kool aid of out of order upgrades delay game? Thanks for trying to paint all AWA pilots as Beech 1900 F/O's that hit the USAirways lottery when we tied up with your POS airline. STFU about your military duty...lots of us have served and do not brag about it on this web board...Wait till the APA pilots treats you like a red headed step child...karma is a b*tch...

P.S.- if you believe Kirby ..he is playing you, read the company's court filings for what is under oath and not water cooler scuttlebutt...

The APA pilots are the only real pilots in this merger. What's the big deal? We all know that already.

 

[slaquer5]

Morris and Air Tran... Was it a fair integration??

First off, I guess it depends on who you ask. The Morris pilots are now in the top 15 % of the list . Both groups did better Muse Air or ATA.


Second I thought this thread was about USair / AA. Why are you bring up SWA. Make a new thread if you want the answers your looking for about SWA.

 

[sean67]

First off, I guess it depends on who you ask. The Morris pilots are now in the top 15 % of the list . Both groups did better Muse Air or ATA.


Second I thought this thread was about USair / AA. Why are you bring up SWA. Make a new thread if you want the answers your looking for about SWA.

You decided to post on this subject...you open yourself up when you do that.I really don't care what happens to you guys and your lists.

 

[sean67]

Sean67...are you a angry 99-01 hire or a third lister drinking the kool aid of out of order upgrades delay game? Thanks for trying to paint all AWA pilots as Beech 1900 F/O's that hit the USAirways lottery when we tied up with your POS airline. STFU about your military duty...lots of us have served and do not brag about it on this web board...Wait till the APA pilots treats you like a red headed step child...karma is a b*tch...

P.S.- if you believe Kirby ..he is playing you, read the company's court filings for what is under oath and not water cooler scuttlebutt...

Not angry at all. Funny how you west guys call us the angry FO club. I challenge you to go to the historic posts on this subject matter...clearly the west are very angry...and have alot of time on their hands posting endlessly here. I hear GL calling... he wants you to come back to bed.

 

[OHGOON]

Not angry at all. Funny how you west guys call us the angry FO club. I challenge you to go to the historic posts on this subject matter...clearly the west are very angry...and have alot of time on their hands posting endlessly here. I hear GL calling... he wants you to come back to bed.

Well, you do come across as pretty wound up. You are right that the West boys are angry. Seems to me, from a very outsider perspective who however has followed this poo-flinging contest very closely, that the West was and is a victim of mob rule. You would be angry too, if you were not the beneficiary of the outcome so far.

 

[MCDU]

Not being able to cash in on a windfall is making Mesa grande pilots very angry. I give east pilots all the credit in fighting an award that placed a new hire in front of someone that has 17 years. The Nic is dead. Count on it. The Alpa integration failed.

M

 

[Turtle21]

Well, you do come across as pretty wound up. You are right that the West boys are angry. Seems to me, from a very outsider perspective who however has followed this poo-flinging contest very closely, that the West was and is a victim of mob rule. You would be angry too, if you were not the beneficiary of the outcome so far.

The Nic was a wonderful win contingent on everyone voting to use it. That never happened. No one has any problem with them being mad about it, we all understand greed. Whats the big deal?

 

[OHGOON]

The Nic was a wonderful win contingent on everyone voting to use it. That never happened. No one has any problem with them being mad about it, we all understand greed. Whats the big deal?

Of course that applies to your position just as much or how else do you justify ignoring an integration arbitration decision that was signed by both sides?

 

[OHGOON]

Not being able to cash in on a windfall is making Mesa grande pilots very angry. I give east pilots all the credit in fighting an award that placed a new hire in front of someone that has 17 years. The Nic is dead. Count on it. The Alpa integration failed.

M

...but it came at a price... Except for the very senior pilots who would have lost a lot, most of you guys have not had a raise in 6+ yrs...how is that a win in anybody's book?

Not to mention the implications for the arbitration process as a whole...

 

[slaquer5]

You decided to post on this subject...you open yourself up when you do that.I really don't care what happens to you guys and your lists.

Thanks for answering my question (BTW you did not )


By your reply , I am guessing USAPA will go to the judge/arabratrator and yell squirrel and hope that distraction will work

I do not think your plan will work,as the judge will not be a 5 yr old or a Golden Retriever .

Go luck, as I think you are going to need it .




I am guessing you do not like to answer my questions, but here is another

How much money has been lost by the senior USAir pilots that are now ,or have just retired , without a pay raise and working with subpar wages?

 

[General Lee]

Hey dork... Get a life and get a girlfriend. You've posted more on OUR subject matter than anyone else. Wow, I really thought DAL had good hiring standards. You have obviously snuck a quick one on them.

Dork? Our merger went great because both sides followed the BINDING award. You guys are a complete joke! I'd comment more on our situation, but I don't have to, it went great, both sides have INTEGRITY. So, now I get to comment on your new "union's" unravelling, and it will be interesting to watch. I do think it funny that because I was hired somewhere, you think I can't point out OBVIOUS wrongs that your group did to another. Your group's action can affect us all. "Oh, I guess we don't like something we all signed up for, so we'll just dump the union and the award and start a new one....." What a bunch of jackholes.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Crzipilot]

Integrity, you see a lack of it in every corner of the US from the top all the way to the bottom.. But yet Pilots are to be these higher than thou integrity honorers.... Your merger went great because you guys saw the train wreck and the gaping hole ALPA left open that allowed an out to the arbitrated award. Did the DAL and NWA not negotiate a JCBA first and then the seniority list. No one could get out of the loop hole we found.

You show me one industry anywhere in this country that someone has not used a loop hole to further their cause?

 

[Bringupthebird]

Loopholes are legal, DFR's are not. Big difference.

 

[General Lee]

Integrity, you see a lack of it in every corner of the US from the top all the way to the bottom.. But yet Pilots are to be these higher than thou integrity honorers.... Your merger went great because you guys saw the train wreck and the gaping hole ALPA left open that allowed an out to the arbitrated award. Did the DAL and NWA not negotiate a JCBA first and then the seniority list. No one could get out of the loop hole we found.

You show me one industry anywhere in this country that someone has not used a loop hole to further their cause?

You are giving excuses for not accepting something EVERYONE agreed upon prior to it starting. Everyone also agreed to Nicolau. The process on choosing an arbitrator has each side picking a few of them, and then among those you pick one. The East MEC chair initially stated that Nic was a good choice. Then, after the process started, Nic supposedly told the East to forget DOH and to negotiate more with the West, to which they refused! Even though a big hint was supposedly given by the arbitrator, it wasn't followed. Then, the award still gave the top 500 positions to the East due to the INTL flying. The refusal of the award has cost everyone money, I even make $25 more per hour as an FO than your 320 Capts! That means 6 years of lost wages that could have been used for retirement planning etc. What a complete flop for you Easties. Tell me where I am wrong. And who's choice was it to do the SLI first? Did your MEC have a voice in that matter? Ours did. Sounds like BOTH MECs of yours screwed that up. Also, both sides were given chances to explain in full their positions on why they deserved their version of the proposed SLI. Sounds like Nic didn't buy any of your side's argument. That happens everyday in different courts. Not often though, are awards just circumvented by one of the parties after the award is given. That sets a dangerous precedent, and as the last judge stated, puts USAPA on dangerous ground.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Turtle21]

Of course that applies to your position just as much or how else do you justify ignoring an integration arbitration decision that was signed by both sides?

Of course greed applies to my position, whatever it is, and to yours too. That was the point. Everyone uses all the rules of the game to get the best outcome for them. You bid your best shot every month. Its part of being in a union. Its part of life.

The arbitration was contingent on both sides voting it into existence. That did not happen. It was the rule. It was what it was.

Now we have a new contingent seniority integration agreement that replaces the old one. If the POR is approved we all move forward as one big happy (whining) family. Life will go one. The sun may even come up!

 

[Turtle21]

Of course that applies to your position just as much or how else do you justify ignoring an integration arbitration decision that was signed by both sides?

Of course greed applies to my position, whatever it is, and to yours too. That was the point. Everyone uses all the rules of the game to get the best outcome for them. You bid your best shot every month. Its part of being in a union. Its part of life.

The arbitration was contingent on both sides voting it into existence. That did not happen. It was the rule. It was what it was.

Now we have a new contingent seniority integration agreement that replaces the old one. If the POR is approved we all move forward as one big happy (whining) family. Life will go one. The sun may even come up!

 

[Turtle21]

Of course that applies to your position just as much or how else do you justify ignoring an integration arbitration decision that was signed by both sides?

Of course greed applies to my position, whatever it is, and to yours too. That was the point. Everyone uses all the rules of the game to get the best outcome for them. You bid your best shot every month. Its part of being in a union. Its part of life.

The arbitration was contingent on both sides voting it into existence. That did not happen. It was the rule. It was what it was.

Now we have a new contingent seniority integration agreement that replaces the old one. If the POR is approved we all move forward as one big happy (whining) family. Life will go one. The sun may even come up!

 

[Turtle21]

Of course that applies to your position just as much or how else do you justify ignoring an integration arbitration decision that was signed by both sides?

Of course greed applies to my position, whatever it is, and to yours too. That was the point. Everyone uses all the rules of the game to get the best outcome for them. You bid your best shot every month. Its part of being in a union. Its part of life.

The arbitration was contingent on both sides voting it into existence. That did not happen. It was the rule. It was what it was.

Now we have a new contingent seniority integration agreement that replaces the old one. If the POR is approved we all move forward as one big happy (whining) family. Life will go one. The sun may even come up!

 

[Turtle21]

Of course that applies to your position just as much or how else do you justify ignoring an integration arbitration decision that was signed by both sides?

Of course it does. Greed applies to your position, my position, and everyone else's position. That is life. We all apply every rule available to us to get the best deal we can. You bid every month, maybe everyday. That is life.

We had a seniority agreement contingent on each side voting it into effect, into existence. That did not happen. Now we have a new seniority integration agreement that will replace the old agreement, also contingent... contingent on the POR approval. We will all move along as one big happy family according to the new agreement that we all voted for. The sun may even come up tomorrow!