AA/USAir non SLI?

[Bringupthebird]

Where in the TA between the pilots in the employ of America West and the pilots in the employ of USAirways, did you see that either side had veto power over a joint contract? Keep looking, it will keep you occupied.

 

[Turtle21]

"We had a seniority agreement contingent on each side voting it into effect, into existence."

The whole each side voting in a contract part of the transition agreement was gona when USAPA was voted in as our single union.

USAPA then inherited all of the contracts and responsibilities of representing all pilots EAST/WEST equally. Which they have failed at.

The final step required in the transition agreement was a final C.B.A.

The ninth circuit and Judge Silver both concluded that the West case was not ripe because there was still no single contract. There had to be some economic gain for one group against another in order for the case to be ripe. Now it is ripe. You will lose, it is a matter of time. Unfortunately, thanks to USAPA and its idiot founders and groupies, we all have lost A Lot of money.

The 9th and Silver both know what is necessary for it to be ripe. There is no contract. The MOU is a contingent MOU. That's why it says "contingent" on the top of it. These are the exact contingencies that the 9th knew were inevitable and unknown, thus making the complaint unfit for judicial intervention or decision.

We all agreed to a new seniority integration agreement/plan (listen to Crandall and you will get it) and we are as much as 2 years away from a completion to that.

You voted 98% for what is happening and you think a judge will give you something different? Rots of Ruck! Seriously, rots of ruck.

 

[Turtle21]

Where in the TA between the pilots in the employ of America West and the pilots in the employ of USAirways, did you see that either side had veto power over a joint contract? Keep looking, it will keep you occupied.

Contingencies still remain, and we all voted for them! If the POR is approved you won't have to bother reading the TA anymore.

 

[abefly]

The 9th and Silver both know what is necessary for it to be ripe. There is no contract. The MOU is a contingent MOU. That's why it says "contingent" on the top of it. These are the exact contingencies that the 9th knew were inevitable and unknown, thus making the complaint unfit for judicial intervention or decision.

We all agreed to a new seniority integration agreement/plan (listen to Crandall and you will get it) and we are as much as 2 years away from a completion to that.

You voted 98% for what is happening and you think a judge will give you something different? Rots of Ruck! Seriously, rots of ruck.

Those contingencies you speak of are a DFR that both the company and USAPA agreed too. Not the west pilots. The MOU is a whole contract for the EAST and WEST, even USapy said so.

You seem pretty sure of yourself. Can I ask have you read any court documents? Did you read the latest filings?

 

[abefly]

Contingencies still remain, and we all voted for them! If the POR is approved you won't have to bother reading the TA anymore.

The TA will go away. It is complete now that we have a single CBA. Here comes the NIC

 

[General Lee]

DAL/NWA learned their lessons from USAPA. Delta pilots don't have any more or less integrity than any other pilot group.

No, integrity is abiding by a signed upon agreement. DL/NW did just that. Just because you "go first", doesn't mean you deserve a re-do. That is ridiculous. In every industry? Anytime there is an arbitration hearing, the groups who go first get a free re-do if one side doesn't like the result? Pure comedy from you.

I look forward to third lister reaction when the NIC is upheld and Westies come East for their new, earned Capt positions.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Bringupthebird]

We all agreed to a new seniority integration agreement/plan (listen to Crandall and you will get it) and we are as much as 2 years away from a completion to that.

I understand that the east folks are always desperately looking for someone to tell them what they want to hear, but now Crandall is your hero? Third in line behind Lorenzo and USAPA, he's the worst thing to ever happen to the pilot profession.

With the MOU, you eliminated the final roadblock to implementing the NIC - a joint contract. Both east and west are earning the same pay contained in the MOU, only the payment is deferred until the Effective date.

Enjoy any vacancies that come up between now and the Effective date. After that (according to Kirby) there will be no east or west, so vacancies will be system wide. If it can be proven that USAPA knowingly denied pilots the vote that would have implemented the Nic earlier, then there will be substantial damages to go along with that upgrade.

And all this because Bradford and Cleary ginned up a believable boogeyman for the gullible east pilot group.

 

[ALGFLYR]

Saying it 50x doesn't make it true. Your new agreed upon "process" doesn't change a thing between East and West. It's ONLY applicable between USAPA and APA. I defy you to find a single reference to an East/West integration inte MOU. Look at the first paragraph where it spells out who the effective parties to the agreement are...see "West Pilots"? Nope.

Best of luck with the new delay campaign. You can't run forever though.

Ok, I'll give it a shot... The MOU States what the minimum block hours will be... It defines a very specific number for American (APA)... Does it also define a very specific number for US Airways? Or does it break it down into East and West flying?? Just curious...

 

[Turtle21]

I understand that the east folks are always desperately looking for someone to tell them what they want to hear, but now Crandall is your hero? Third in line behind Lorenzo and USAPA, he's the worst thing to ever happen to the pilot profession.

With the MOU, you eliminated the final roadblock to implementing the NIC - a joint contract. Both east and west are earning the same pay contained in the MOU, only the payment is deferred until the Effective date.

Enjoy any vacancies that come up between now and the Effective date. After that (according to Kirby) there will be no east or west, so vacancies will be system wide. If it can be proven that USAPA knowingly denied pilots the vote that would have implemented the Nic earlier, then there will be substantial damages to go along with that upgrade.

And all this because Bradford and Cleary ginned up a believable boogeyman for the gullible east pilot group.

You might not like Crandall but he told us what was going to happen. He said a "seniority integration agreement/plan" was absolutely necessary before he would support a merger. He did not say seniority integrated list. The MOU contains the new, signed, sealed, and delivered seniority integration agreement, contingent on the POR approval.

The MOU is a "Contingent MOU". Did you not read the title of the MOU that you voted to approve? Now where else have you heard that word "Contingent"? Oh, yeah, the 9th said it wasn't ripe because of contingencies... so you just voted to add an additional contingency (by 98%) on top of the ones the 9th was already aware of, and you think doing so makes it ripe?

15. US Airways agrees that it will comply with the East and West CBAs and the Transition Agreement until the Effective Date.

 

[Turtle21]

Ok, I'll give it a shot... The MOU States what the minimum block hours will be... It defines a very specific number for American (APA)... Does it also define a very specific number for US Airways? Or does it break it down into East and West flying?? Just curious...

Is that a rhetorical question?

 

[Turtle21]

Saying it 50x doesn't make it true. Your new agreed upon "process" doesn't change a thing between East and West. It's ONLY applicable between USAPA and APA. I defy you to find a single reference to an East/West integration inte MOU. Look at the first paragraph where it spells out who the effective parties to the agreement are...see "West Pilots"? Nope.

Best of luck with the new delay campaign. You can't run forever though.

10. a. A seniority integration process consistent with McCaskill-Bond shall begin as soon as possible after the Effective Date.

10.h. US Airways agrees that neither this Memorandum nor the JCBA shall provide a basis for changing the seniority lists currently in effect at US Airways other than through the process set forth in this Paragraph 10.

11. a. During the term of the MTA, US Airways shall not furlough any pilots who have established and maintain seniority on the US Airways mainline system as of the Effective Date. USAPA will provide, by name, East Pilot “X” and West Pilot “Y” who will be the most junior US Airways pilots afforded this furlough protection [on their respective lists].

 

[Bringupthebird]

Turd21, go get USAPA to send you new talking points. Ask for the E-Z Reader edition. Crandall would be proud of USAPA and your self-imposed Z-scale. He convinced you that you weren't worth what you were paid, and you've proven him right. Aren't you a good dog, yes you are!

 

[Turtle21]

Turd21, go get USAPA to send you new talking points. Ask for the E-Z Reader edition. Crandall would be proud of USAPA and your self-imposed Z-scale. He convinced you that you weren't worth what you were paid, and you've proven him right. Aren't you a good dog, yes you are!

You are starting to write a lot like the poser who calls himself a non-specific!

 

[PuffDriver]

DAL/NWA learned their lessons from USAPA. Delta pilots don't have any more or less integrity than any other pilot group.

This is correct. Quite the contrary, Delta pilots steal just as much stuff drom each other as any other pilot group, Delta pilots dummied down the rates of larger aircraft on the north side in order to fare better on the seniority list, Delta pilots fly extra with their own pilots on furlough, Delta pilots call in sick when they aren't sick, and the list goes on and on.

Long story short, individual pilots will always look out for themselves, and compromise integrity when it suits them, individual pilot groups will look out for themselves first, and attempt to get unfair deals at the expense of the other group, and pilots will always find a way to compromise their "integrity" with regard to their company.

Count on it.

 

[slaquer5]

Long story short, individual pilots will always look out for themselves, and compromise integrity when it suits them, individual pilot groups will look out for themselves first, and attempt to get unfair deals at the expense of the other group, and pilots will always find a way to compromise their "integrity" with regard to their company.

Count on it.

Could not have been said better. Anyone who disagrees has there head in the sand.

 

[General Lee]

This is correct. Quite the contrary, Delta pilots steal just as much stuff drom each other as any other pilot group, Delta pilots dummied down the rates of larger aircraft on the north side in order to fare better on the seniority list, Delta pilots fly extra with their own pilots on furlough, Delta pilots call in sick when they aren't sick, and the list goes on and on.

Long story short, individual pilots will always look out for themselves, and compromise integrity when it suits them, individual pilot groups will look out for themselves first, and attempt to get unfair deals at the expense of the other group, and pilots will always find a way to compromise their "integrity" with regard to their company.

Count on it.

So, the 3 arbitrators couldn't see through any of that? They are that dumb? That is ridiculous. During an arbitrated SLI, both sides give testimony to the judges, and they decide. Then, wait for it, you abide by the award! There is even a written explanation given where you can see their reasoning. So easy.

How again did DL pilots "dummy down" NW widebody rates??? Each side had an equal number of their own largest plane. DL pilots fly more when people are on furlough? Wrong. There was a cap established at 75 hours max. Some people may have gotten Greenslips, but lines were built at 75 hours max. And pilots actually call in sick when they aren't? Say it ain't so! That never happens anywhere else I bet...

What's funny is you trying to equate any of the above to disregarding a binding award that 3 parties agreed to. That has huge implications, in our industry and EVERY industry. If anyone can just disregard a binding award, then the whole arbitration process will be in jeopardy, all because of one particular group who sorely lacks integrity.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Could not have been said better. Anyone who disagrees has there head in the sand.

Do you think all legal awards should be disregarded? Divorce decrees, personal injury settlements? All subject to "you know what? I don't like the ruling, so F it!" Maybe you do.... What is different here? Did someone do the same thing?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PuffDriver]

So, the 3 arbitrators couldn't see through any of that? They are that dumb? That is ridiculous. During an arbitrated SLI, both sides give testimony to the judges, and they decide. Then, wait for it, you abide by the award! There is even a written explanation given where you can see their reasoning. So easy.

How again did DL pilots "dummy down" NW widebody rates??? Each side had an equal number of their own largest plane. DL pilots fly more when people are on furlough? Wrong. There was a cap established at 75 hours max. Some people may have gotten Greenslips, but lines were built at 75 hours max. And pilots actually call in sick when they aren't? Say it ain't so! That never happens anywhere else I bet...

What's funny is you trying to equate any of the above to disregarding a binding award that 3 parties agreed to. That has huge implications, in our industry and EVERY industry. If anyone can just disregard a binding award, then the whole arbitration process will be in jeopardy, all because of one particular group who sorely lacks integrity.



Bye Bye---General Lee

You have said nothing here, and that's not surprising.

There has been no law broken. What has happened is that the east pilots have used their leverage to apply pressure in a legal manner to prevent the implementation of the combined seniority list. Now, with the merger in process, we are about to test the waters of whether or not that list is indeed permanent or not.

Delta pilots, or more accurately Delta union leadership, did the same type of integrity check when they established rates in a contract which usurped traditional aircraft size pay differential; thereby leveling the field more for Delta pilots in the seniority integration. Integrity.

SWA pilots did the same thing to Air Tran pilots.

East/west, no different. You enjoy slamming the worst rates in the industry, but when you look at actual facts, USAir was operating under a second bankruptcy contract, while AWA has always sucked with regard to pay and benefits BK or not.

Integrity is integrity, whether it is calling in sick when you aren't, whether you green slip with furloughed pilots or not, whether you either down pay rates on larger/capable aircraft to gain advantage in seniority list integrations, or whether you use your leverage as a larger pilot group to lawfully avoid implementation of a lopsided seniority integration.

Delta pilots are no smarter, nor have any more integrity than any other pilot group. UsAir east pilots are not scummy scabs, just a cohesive group of pilots utilizing ALPA merger policy to their advantage--as American pilots have, as SWA pilots have, as would any pilot group with a numbers advantage.

 

[General Lee]

You have said nothing here, and that's not surprising.

There has been no law broken. What has happened is that the east pilots have used their leverage to apply pressure in a legal manner to prevent the implementation of the combined seniority list. Now, with the merger in process, we are about to test the waters of whether or not that list is indeed permanent or not.

Delta pilots, or more accurately Delta union leadership, did the same type of integrity check when they established rates in a contract which usurped traditional aircraft size pay differential; thereby leveling the field more for Delta pilots in the seniority integration. Integrity.

SWA pilots did the same thing to Air Tran pilots.

East/west, no different. You enjoy slamming the worst rates in the industry, but when you look at actual facts, USAir was operating under a second bankruptcy contract, while AWA has always sucked with regard to pay and benefits BK or not.

Integrity is integrity, whether it is calling in sick when you aren't, whether you green slip with furloughed pilots or not, whether you either down pay rates on larger/capable aircraft to gain advantage in seniority list integrations, or whether you use your leverage as a larger pilot group to lawfully avoid implementation of a lopsided seniority integration.

Delta pilots are no smarter, nor have any more integrity than any other pilot group. UsAir east pilots are not scummy scabs, just a cohesive group of pilots utilizing ALPA merger policy to their advantage--as American pilots have, as SWA pilots have, as would any pilot group with a numbers advantage.

"There has been no law broken....." Come on man. You are ridiculous. Covering up for something TERRIBLE. Everyone knows it, and so do you. The last judge said USAPA is on "dangerous ground" because of their disregarding the award, that all 3 parties signed. Keep trying to hide from the truth. Keeping "fingers crossed behind your back" is ok in your mind. Several judges have stated that when the case does reach "ripe" status, the West pilots will be entitled to awards. So........looks like something wrong did happen, and signing on the bottom line does mean something, except to you.

SWA pilots never let it get to binding arbitration, and you know it. Threats were used instead, and it was accepted but may permanently affect relations.

Not agreeing to something "already agreed upon" by all 3 parties prior to arbitration resulted in 6 years of lower pay for every USAir pilot, and that meant THOUSANDS of lost dollars for each pilot, hurting thier future retirement earnings too. How STOOOPID. They all agreed to Nicolau, and then they didn't after they got the award. It's pretty simple. And, that shows a huge lack of integrity.

Delta pilots equalled out pay for large category airplanes, and also only took a 5% raise at the merger, while the FNWA pilots all got 25% raises, and kept their frozen pensions. Their own furloughed pilots also got longevity credit for their time out on furlough, something United pilots never got.(they would NOT have gotten that at NWA) So, what other bad things did the DL pilots do again? They equalled 777s to 744s. The DL pilots also brought 757 pay UP to 767 pay. Was that wrong? You probably see it as a bad thing, some nefarious plot to cause mayhem. There were more 757s than 767s, and they aren't the same size, but more people got MORE money. Was that a lack of integrity? You have NO answer.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PuffDriver]

"There has been no law broken....." Come on man. You are ridiculous. Covering up for something TERRIBLE. Everyone knows it, and so do you. The last judge said USAPA is on "dangerous ground" because of their disregarding the award, that all 3 parties signed. Keep trying to hide from the truth. Keeping "fingers crossed behind your back" is ok in your mind. Several judges have stated that when the case does reach "ripe" status, the West pilots will be entitled to awards. So........looks like something wrong did happen, and signing on the bottom line does mean something, except to you.

SWA pilots never let it get to binding arbitration, and you know it. Threats were used instead, and it was accepted but may permanently affect relations.

Not agreeing to something "already agreed upon" by all 3 parties prior to arbitration resulted in 6 years of lower pay for every USAir pilot, and that meant THOUSANDS of lost dollars for each pilot, hurting thier future retirement earnings too. How STOOOPID. They all agreed to Nicolau, and then they didn't after they got the award. It's pretty simple. And, that shows a huge lack of integrity.

Delta pilots equalled out pay for large category airplanes, and also only took a 5% raise at the merger, while the FNWA pilots all got 25% raises, and kept their frozen pensions. Their own furloughed pilots also got longevity credit for their time out on furlough, something United pilots never got.(they would NOT have gotten that at NWA) So, what other bad things did the DL pilots do again? They equalled 777s to 744s. The DL pilots also brought 757 pay UP to 767 pay. Was that wrong? You probably see it as a bad thing, some nefarious plot to cause mayhem. There were more 757s than 767s, and they aren't the same size, but more people got MORE money. Was that a lack of integrity? You have NO answer.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Actually, the judge said that they are on dangerous ground by negotiating a list other than the NIC. Get your facts straight. The award is not ripe, and it has been said so by the court system. Now we throw in another little merger with an MOU instead of another PWA and we are off the grid. Facts, not your spin. That is ALPA merger policy, and the east pilots are using it to their advantage, just like any other group would; such as the Delta pilots.

More spin from you is that Delta pilots received more than a 5 percent raise out of bankruptcy. They received a raise for the contract which allowed the exception to ownership policy, thereby circumventing the NWA pilots. This gave the Delta pilots a raise, and kept NWA pilots at BK wages. Then both groups got a raise with the JCBA. So the Delta pilots received two raises whereas the NWA pilots received 1 big one. While you think it is ok to lump both airlines "big equipment" into 1 rate, it was simply the Delta pilots union leadership taking advantage of the SLI situation. I guess in your mind it is ok to allow AK the same allowance because their largest aircraft is a 737-900.

You got nothing. The only point is that integrity is a matter of opinion, and subject to definition by keyboard warriors who hang out on bitch boards throwing darts without really knowing what is going on in the industry.

You are also saying that the east/west case, the last one done under ALPA merger policy as it was at the time, will have far reaching implications for the whole industry; which is now mandated by federal law by MB under their MOU? Clueless. Go learn the difference between ALPA merger policy and federal law, and come back and try again.