AA/USAir non SLI?

[TWA Dude]

Can anyone, even turtle, please tell me what seniority list your going to give APA.

The short answer is no. But this isn't rocket surgery. Everyone knows USAPA wants to present it's wet-dream doh list and unless compelled to do otherwise it will.

 

[slaquer5]

The short answer is no. But this isn't rocket surgery. Everyone knows USAPA wants to present it's wet-dream doh list and unless compelled to do otherwise it will.

Thanks for answering .




Another question


Say USAPA does give APA a hand made USAPA list. I would think APA would not want to use a list that goes against what a judge ruled .


In other words , I would think APA would demand a list that is federal approved .

 

[Turtle21]

Can anyone, even turtle, please tell me what seniority list your going to give APA.

I am sure that is all APA cares about.

There is no court anywhere that has said USAPA is enjoined to bargain with any list other than the one they choose, according to their own careful consideration of what is best for all pilots (and the West class is bound by court order to but out until it is over). Not ripe for judicial intervention. That would harm the free bargaining rights and responsibilities of the bargaining agent.

The APA and USAPA, at the POR, will establish the protocol they think is best for all pilots, and then they can agree on a new integrated list or they then punt to an arbitrator. There is nothing to favor the use of the Nic other than loud threats.. according to any lawyer's advice... If you have the facts argue the facts, if not, scream like h_ll. The company has attempted to console them by saying "everyone's voice will be heard."

To say what USAPA and APA will actually do is speculative at best and there are still unknown contingencies that will occur before the SLI is completed and incorporated into a final contract, but there is plenty left to scream about.

 

[Turtle21]

Thanks for answering .




Another question


Say USAPA does give APA a hand made USAPA list. I would think APA would not want to use a list that goes against what a judge ruled .


In other words , I would think APA would demand a list that is federal approved .

Why would APA accept (or why would USAPA offer) any list that doesn't account for why each pilot is in their current position, exactly according to their awarded bids?

 

[abefly]

There is no court anywhere that has said USAPA is enjoined to bargain with any list other than the one they choose, according to their own careful consideration of what is best for all pilots (and the West class is bound by court order to but out until it is over). Not ripe for judicial intervention. That would harm the free bargaining rights and responsibilities of the bargaining agent.

The APA and USAPA, at the POR, will establish the protocol they think is best for all pilots, and then they can agree on a new integrated list or they then punt to an arbitrator. There is nothing to favor the use of the Nic other than loud threats.. according to any lawyer's advice... If you have the facts argue the facts, if not, scream like h_ll. The company has attempted to console them by saying "everyone's voice will be heard."

To say what USAPA and APA will actually do is speculative at best and there are still unknown contingencies that will occur before the SLI is completed and incorporated into a final contract, but there is plenty left to scream about.

Do you still believe in unicorns, Santa, and the tooth fairy as well? You can't fix stupid

 

[Turtle21]

Do you still believe in unicorns, Santa, and the tooth fairy as well? You can't fix stupid

Why would APA accept (or why would USAPA offer) any list that doesn't account for why each pilot is in their current position, exactly according to their awarded bids?

Do you have an answer?

We all know some of the West posters are rabidly persuaded that USAPA is stupid and will do everything they can to harm poor children across the whole earth.

If you have something other than insults..

 

[abefly]

Do you have an answer?

We all know some of the West posters are rabidly persuaded that USAPA is stupid and will do everything they can to harm poor children across the whole earth.

If you have something other than insults..

Yes I do have an answer. Click here for your answer.

Also if you want the facts can also click here.

APA will not accept anything. It is not up to them to decide anything.

There will be an arbitration under M/B with The Us Airways single seniority list and the American seniority list.

 

[abefly]

" In the past, USAPA has also argued that unless it repudiates the Nicolau Award it cannot get the East Pilot majority to ratify a new CBA"

"Judge Wake properly rejected impasse as illegitimate because an individual’s wrongful intransigence cannot justify yielding to that intransigence.​

​

​

​

Id. (holding, “the socalled impasse could not, as a matter of law, justify USAPA’s actions toward the West Pilots and the Nicolau Award”)."
​

"Regardless, impasse is no longer an issue. MOU ratification was the East Pilots’ last opportunity to be intransigent, to block a CBA that used the Nicolau Award. (SOF ¶ 92.) No further pilot ratification is required in the course of the pending merger with American Airlines.​

Id. USAPA, therefore, can no longer claim that there is an impasse."
​

"Because all material contract terms are now fixed by the ratified MOU, nothing can occur that might create a hypothetical justification for repudiating the Nicolau Award. Ripeness, therefore, is no longer an issue"​

 

[Turtle21]

Yes I do have an answer. Click here for your answer.

Also if you want the facts can also click here.

APA will not accept anything. It is not up to them to decide anything.

There will be an arbitration under M/B with The Us Airways single seniority list and the American seniority list.

Certainly it's your right to ask the court to give you something beyond what you were given by the company in the MOU, but that did not answer the question.

 

[slaquer5]

Why would APA accept (or why would USAPA offer) any list that doesn't account for why each pilot is in their current position, exactly according to their awarded bids?

That is my question. Why would APA accept,and use, any list that is not the final said list.

I would think APA would want to stay out of USAir/ AWA fight.

I also do not think it would be in APAs best interest, to send everything(AA/USair/ AWA) to an arbitrator .

APA needs to take care of the AA pilots first. Hence, they need a final list from the new USair, before they can even start any integration .

 

[abefly]

Certainly it's your right to ask the court to give you something beyond what you were given by the company in the MOU, but that did not answer the question.

You will have your answer soon enough, again you can't fix stupid.

I for one can't wait to listen to USAPA's limp dick attorneys try to dig there way out of this one.

 

[Turtle21]

That is my question. Why would APA accept,and use, any list that is not the final said list.

I would think APA would want to stay out of USAir/ AWA fight.

I also do not think it would be in APAs best interest, to send everything(AA/USair/ AWA) to an arbitrator .

APA needs to take care of the AA pilots first. Hence, they need a final list from the new USair, before they can even start any integration .

Your question is not the same question I asked.

 

[UALjan15]

Why would APA accept (or why would USAPA offer) any list that doesn't account for why each pilot is in their current position, exactly according to their awarded bids?

The short answer is that a list that accounts for each pilot's current bid position doesn't help much if we are operating two separate operations, and is absolutely useless in an SLI. Seniority number is everything, bid position is subject to all kinds of things that don't matter in an SLI.

APA has said only one consistent thing with regard to the east/west list: that they don't want to inherit the fight. They want one US list--it doesn't have to make everyone happy, but it would be nice if it had legal justification, so that part of the new AA list is not subject to continuing legal challenge.

What USAPA wants to put forth as that list makes no difference, as it is negotiating only for east interests. The path that leads us to a single list to give to APA will come through the courts, will likely be appealed, and will eventually be the final answer. And in all likelihood, it will be Nicolau's list.

USAPA knows this, but their strategy was/is/always will be this: upgrade as many F/Os as possible before the Nic is imposed, delaying that date through litigation as long as possible, banking on the reasonable assumption that no bump/no flush will be in effect after the final SLI. Largely, this strategy is working like a champ, and I don't see how it stops working in the near term. Will west pilots ever be compensated for these lost earnings? Great question.

 

[slaquer5]

Your question is not the same question I asked.

You don't like answering questions do you. Are the rest of the USAir E pilots as far out in left field as you ?

 

[Turtle21]

Why would APA accept (or why would USAPA offer) any list that doesn't account for why each pilot is in their current position, exactly according to their awarded bids?

The short answer is that a list that accounts for each pilot's current bid position doesn't help much ..

A civil post once in awhile in these threads is a welcome event!

I certainly agree that a seniority list is necessary to have a seniority list integration. That was the premise to my question. It is not possible to integrate lists that are not a seniority list. A seniority list by definition is a basis for why each pilot holds their current position... its what they bid, and the company awarded it to them in their seniority order. If a list is not being used by the company to award bid positions then it by definition is not a seniority list.

Why would APA or USAPA use such a list for SLI?

 

[General Lee]

Do you have an answer?

We all know some of the West posters are rabidly persuaded that USAPA is stupid and will do everything they can to harm poor children across the whole earth.

If you have something other than insults..

Answer this: did all 3 groups (West, East, Mangagement) all sign on the bottom line to abide by Binding Arbitration before it started? Another question: Did all sides agree to Nicolau?

If so, then YOU ARE WRONG.....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Turtle21]

You don't like answering questions do you. Are the rest of the USAir E pilots as far out in left field as you ?

Is your daughter a west pilots.

 

[Scoot 11]

Is your daughter a west pilots.

Were your mother and father brother and sister?
Answer the question!

 

[Turtle21]

Were your mother and father brother and sister?
Answer the question!

No. Projection?

 

[Scoot 11]

No. Projection?

Typical eastie. BTW, thanks for trying bring down the industry to your level. Good thing is when you're on the bottom, you've got no where to go but up?
Maybe. But you've got the pride knowing a MESA pilot is making more than a 190 captain!:laugh:
Kharma is a bitch, and she's about to slap you courtesy of the APA! But don't let that stop your from your constant :crying::crying:!

 

[TWA Dude]

Say USAPA does give APA a hand made USAPA list. I would think APA would not want to use a list that goes against what a judge ruled .

If we get a court injunction prohibiting Usapa from using anything other than the Nicolau list (like we did before) then APA is off the hook. If we don't get the injunction granted things get more complicated. No point on speculating on that scenario unless we have to.

 

[Turtle21]

If...

Exactly. Until there is a conclusion, there is no conclusion, and every consideration along the way to it is another contingency that reaffirms the rationale of the 9th's opinion.

 

[Ocity]

Exactly. Until there is a conclusion, there is no conclusion, and every consideration along the way to it is another contingency that reaffirms the rationale of the 9th's opinion.

Everyone knows exactly what USAPA is and what they are all about. Hiding behind the ripeness issue isn't exactly the best plan is it? Everybody seems to want this over and finally decided by the court system. Everyone EXCEPT USAPA. Why? If you're on such solid, defensible ground one would expect USAPA Would jump at the chance to go to court but its quite the opposite. Very telling.

 

[Turtle21]

Everyone knows exactly what USAPA is and what they are all about. Hiding behind the ripeness issue isn't exactly the best plan is it? Everybody seems to want this over and finally decided by the court system. Everyone EXCEPT USAPA. Why? If you're on such solid, defensible ground one would expect USAPA Would jump at the chance to go to court but its quite the opposite. Very telling.

Everyone knows exactly what AOL is really all about and hiding behind a 98% approval of the MOU isn't exactly the best plan is it?

 

[Bringupthebird]

The difference is that AOL presents their arguments in front of judges and their opinion is affirmed by juries. USAPA presnts their arguments to themselves and their supporters and they are never affirmed, only replaced by a new boogeyman. "98%" is simply a distraction to keep the ones who support the BPR's lavish lifestyle from coming unglued and grabbing the pitchforks and torches.

If USAPA thought they had a case, they would have pressed hard to have the company accept their DOH list. Instead they seek cover for their blatant delay that allows them to steal what was denied them.

 

[slaquer5]

If we get a court injunction prohibiting Usapa from using anything other than the Nicolau list (like we did before) then APA is off the hook. If we don't get the injunction granted things get more complicated. No point on speculating on that scenario unless we have to.

Thanks

This is very interesting to watch play out . I wish you the best .



I do not see APA accepting a list that is being contested by half the pilot group and proceeding with an integrated list. I am sure APA will wait till they get a list with some final say. It would be wasted money and resources to work on some list that might get tossed out.


Turtle, thanks for coming on, it's nice to get a USAir guy perspective , I am sure most are to old and crusty, to even know what the internet is .

 

[Bringupthebird]

The short answer is that a list that accounts for each pilot's current bid position doesn't help much if we are operating two separate operations, and is absolutely useless in an SLI. Seniority number is everything, bid position is subject to all kinds of things that don't matter in an SLI.

APA has said only one consistent thing with regard to the east/west list: that they don't want to inherit the fight. They want one US list--it doesn't have to make everyone happy, but it would be nice if it had legal justification, so that part of the new AA list is not subject to continuing legal challenge.

What USAPA wants to put forth as that list makes no difference, as it is negotiating only for east interests. The path that leads us to a single list to give to APA will come through the courts, will likely be appealed, and will eventually be the final answer. And in all likelihood, it will be Nicolau's list.

USAPA knows this, but their strategy was/is/always will be this: upgrade as many F/Os as possible before the Nic is imposed, delaying that date through litigation as long as possible, banking on the reasonable assumption that no bump/no flush will be in effect after the final SLI. Largely, this strategy is working like a champ, and I don't see how it stops working in the near term. Will west pilots ever be compensated for these lost earnings? Great question.

The M-B arbitrators will throw two lists back in the face of USAPA and tell them that they are only charged with integrating US and AA and that they won't re-arbitrate what has already been done. If they present a phony DOH list AOL will get a court to block it's use. Thus the only thing that USAPA can do is present the NIC and then hide from the mid-level seniority F/O's and CA's that paid for the few upgrades that were swiped during the delay for the rest of their miserable careers.

I say few because some of them were legitimate, just not all of them and not exclusive of any west pilots. Under NIC, practically as many pilots would have upgraded as did under USAPA's Grand Theft Union (their IUD, or Illegitimate Union Directive). But EVERYONE had to sacrifice pay and benefits for years so that a very very few (as a percentage) could reap undeserved benefits.

 

[Turtle21]

Thanks

This is very interesting to watch play out . I wish you the best .



I do not see APA accepting a list that is being contested by half the pilot group and proceeding with an integrated list. I am sure APA will wait till they get a list with some final say. It would be wasted money and resources to work on some list that might get tossed out.


Turtle, thanks for coming on, it's nice to get a USAir guy perspective , I am sure most are to old and crusty, to even know what the internet is .

Hey, don't underestimate how up with it we octogenarians are.

 

[Turtle21]

The M-B arbitrators will throw two lists back in the face of USAPA and tell them that they are only charged with integrating US and AA and that they won't re-arbitrate what has already been done. If they present a phony DOH list AOL will get a court to block it's use. Thus the only thing that USAPA can do is present the NIC and then hide from the mid-level seniority F/O's and CA's that paid for the few upgrades that were swiped during the delay for the rest of their miserable careers.

I say few because some of them were legitimate, just not all of them and not exclusive of any west pilots. Under NIC, practically as many pilots would have upgraded as did under USAPA's Grand Theft Union (their IUD, or Illegitimate Union Directive). But EVERYONE had to sacrifice pay and benefits for years so that a very very few (as a percentage) could reap undeserved benefits.

I get a kick out of folks that think they can predict how every contingency will turn out, but the 9th didn't wade into such speculation.

Let's be honest, there is only one question at hand... What takes precedence? 1) a union's right to negotiate on behalf of all its members or 2) a minority's desire to have a court impose a predetermined path to the union during negotiations.

We can keep arguing to change what the 9th decided but its still the same question.

 

[Bringupthebird]

That would be the question absent previously agreed-to arbitration. Unfortunately (for them), the founders of USAPA waited too long to replace ALPA and are therefore compelled to carry out what they agreed to under ALPA's representation. Unfortunately (for the vast majority of US pilots), USAPA was ever formed at all.

Please explain why USAPA wants to keep line pilots from voting? Why do they fear the pilots? Do you often feel the need to pay someone 2.5% of your pay to protect you from yourself?