AA/USAir non SLI?

[atpcliff]

AA cannot do anything. USAir is running the show, and the AA managers are done.

 

[OHGOON]

AA cannot do anything. USAir is running the show, and the AA managers are done.

and your point here regarding SLI is???

 

[MD80PILOT]

There is NO WAY any judge or arbitrator will NOT consider the NIC award when
looking to the AA/LCC SLI intergration. And my humble bet is that is where it's heading to an Arbitrator.

 

[eaglesview]

There is NO WAY any judge or arbitrator will NOT consider the NIC award when
looking to the AA/LCC SLI intergration. And my humble bet is that is where it's heading to an Arbitrator.

You must be brand new to aviation or you would know better than to use words like, never, can't, or NO WAY.

 

[OHGOON]

You must be brand new to aviation or you would know better than to use words like, never, can't, or NO WAY.

True dat!

but his overall point is still well taken...hard to see it now coming out any other way than he predicts but knowing aviation...

Never underestimate the ability of corruption and greed to get the upper hand.

 

[sniper]

USAPA and its creation will be remembered in the Aviation history books the most detrimental mistake done by an Airline pilot group.

It will
Be a case study in the Universities.

Their pilot group had no raise for 7 years and majority of them will hit 65 without a raise.

7 years with 40000 pay less per year for each captain is 280,000 plus interest plus 401k etc...
Each if those pilots lost at least 400,000 dollars


Simple put

 

[General Lee]

There is NO WAY any judge or arbitrator will NOT consider the NIC award when
looking to the AA/LCC SLI intergration. And my humble bet is that is where it's heading to an Arbitrator.

I think it actually will be a panel of arbitrators, not 1. But, the USAir SLI was agreed upon beforehand, by all sides including the company, and agreed on Nicolau. And, I bet all 3 of the arbitrators know Nic personally. Everyone will also be watching the Easties, and that should be interesting. I can't wait to read the testimony notes.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

USAPA and its creation will be remembered in the Aviation history books the most detrimental mistake done by an Airline pilot group.

It will
Be a case study in the Universities.

Their pilot group had no raise for 7 years and majority of them will hit 65 without a raise.

7 years with 40000 pay less per year for each captain is 280,000 plus interest plus 401k etc...
Each if those pilots lost at least 400,000 dollars


Simple put

It really was a collosal F-Up. What a complete waste of time. The top 500 guys on the East side got the top 500 spots because they flew INTL. They could have not voted for USAPA, still stayed in the top 500, and had a pay raise for the last 5-8 years of their careers. But, they went along with the ride and lost hundreds of thousands of dollars, that could have been used to pump up their retirements, and the market has come back from the 2009 lows. Just think what a few thousand extra dollars per month since the comeback of the DOW could have resulted in now? Oh well......


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Turtle21]

USAPA and its creation will be remembered in the Aviation history books the most detrimental mistake done by an Airline pilot group.

It will
Be a case study in the Universities.

...

In Universities... yeah, I could see that. Universities are famous for peddling half truths as if it were knowledge.

Maybe they could feature John Prater as a guest speaker at their series of lectures on USAPA, but to win his appearance they would have to censor any discussion of the unseemly profits that resulted from each and every flip flop of ALPA's whimsical seniority integration policy, lest even idiots grasp reality and the Universities' case study cease to appear relevant.

 

[Flybywire44]

It really was a collosal F-Up. What a complete waste of time. The top 500 guys on the East side got the top 500 spots because they flew INTL. They could have not voted for USAPA, still stayed in the top 500, and had a pay raise for the last 5-8 years of their careers. But, they went along with the ride and lost hundreds of thousands of dollars, that could have been used to pump up their retirements, and the market has come back from the 2009 lows. Just think what a few thousand extra dollars per month since the comeback of the DOW could have resulted in now? Oh well......


Bye Bye---General Lee

Hi General,

At worst USAPA served the East pilot group well by preserving seniority and growth on the East side for what will be at least 10 years and 3 months. Many of those pilots who would have been most affected will retire without having to endure the Nic award.

The top 500 pilots voted to protect their first officers and junior pilots.

The seniority and movement that would have otherwise been lost more than makes up for the loss of pay. Objectively, the loss of pay may also have positioned US Airways well for a merger.


West, East and APA may have no merger related seniority rights until JCBA and SLI implementation. Why would the arbitrators defy McCaskill Bond and give West pilots a windfall SLI award over APA pilots? APA and USAPA may provide a legitimate union purpose for what lists they provide for arbitration.

~12 percent of the newAmerican pilot group may not be relatively valued over the rest—The is a new JCBA and SLI with a new union purpose.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Hi General,

At worst USAPA served the East pilot group well by preserving seniority and growth on the East side for what will be at least 10 years and 3 months. Many of those pilots who would have been most affected will retire without having to endure the Nic award.

The top 500 pilots voted to protect their first officers and junior pilots.

The seniority and movement that would have otherwise been lost more than makes up for the loss of pay. Objectively, the loss of pay may also have positioned US Airways well for a merger.

You know that none of what you wrote is true.

First, by taking on the task of Representitive, it must represent ALL US pilots, not just those it sides with.

Secondly, under the NIC, your statement regarding growth only applies to those pilots who were furloughed at the time of the merger. The bulk of the pilots would have seen upgrades and advancement at very much the same rate, only many years earlier.

Thirdly, the senior pilots had no way to know that the folks they were helping would be so selfish, that they would subject them to BK wages for the remainder of their career in pursuit of an illegal seniority grab.

Lastly, had USAPA never been birthed, US may have been in a much stronger position and may have been able to expand as much or more than the merger provides, with all of the benefits going to the US pilots.

I know that you admit to yourself that you wish USAPA had failed in its representation bid. And now for all their failure, they want to extort an additional $2 million from its pilots to cover their poor decision to squander that same amount in legal fees for nothing.

Please retire or quit the industry and put an end to spread of the effects of your poor shortsighted decisions.

EAST PILOTS = LORENZO

 

[Flybywire44]

You know that none of what you wrote is true.

How do you know that I know that?

I fully stand by my last post as either fact or possibility. For example, it is a fact that US Airways will maintain separate seniority lists for at least a total of 10 years and 3 months.

First, by taking on the task of Representitive, it must represent ALL US pilots, not just those it sides with.

I never said that USAPA did not serve the West group well, just that that "USAPA served the East pilot group well by..." USAPA recently represented the West pilot group well by negotiating a pay raise, enhanced job security and other QOL improvements. What a tremendous benefit it is that after so much gnashing of teeth that now USAPA will facilitate bringing West and East pilots together under the American Airlines and APA names.

This is a time to relax and be thankful. Merging with American means that you truly have won the lottery under USAPA's representation.

Secondly, under the NIC, your statement regarding growth only applies to those pilots who were furloughed at the time of the merger. The bulk of the pilots would have seen upgrades and advancement at very much the same rate, only many years earlier.

Yes, but Nic does not exist and you have no rights to it until after JCBA+SLI. Hence why your DFR is not ripe, which is why AOL is saber rattling now.

Instead of the bulk, now all east pilots are eligible for East movement and immune to the LAS closing. My statement regarding growth not only applies to furloughed pilots of yesteryear, but also to the pilot hiring and aircraft deliveries taking place today—hence why East pilots opted for what may be at least 10.25 years of separate operations.

Thirdly, the senior pilots had no way to know that the folks they were helping would be so selfish, that they would subject them to BK wages for the remainder of their career in pursuit of an illegal seniority grab.

The senior pilots at US Airways are happy. Age 65 gave them an extra 5 years at the top, growth and great schedules. Now a new generation of senior pilots is replacing them.

Lastly, had USAPA never been birthed, US may have been in a much stronger position and may have been able to expand as much or more than the merger provides, with all of the benefits going to the US pilots.

You're right. US Airways "may" have been in a much stronger position, but this is not practical thinking. Ill will, infighting, and overreaching from both East and West ALPA were the catalyst that gave US Airways the massive economic boost to be successful today. The inefficiencies of separate operations pale to the cost controls of bankruptcy era contracts.

This is a sweetheart scenario facilitated by Doug Parker: Divide Et Impera!

I know that you admit to yourself that you wish USAPA had failed in its representation bid. And now for all their failure, they want to extort an additional $2 million from its pilots to cover their poor decision to squander that same amount in legal fees for nothing.

I could care less about what USAPA did. Their past has nothing to do with me.

Please retire or quit the industry and put an end to spread of the effects of your poor shortsighted decisions.

Okay.

EAST PILOTS = LORENZO

No, East Pilots = West Pilots...

Both groups were equally disrespectful, over-reaching and disingenuous.

Bringupthebird, You may consider watching this video where I believe Bob Crandall encourages East/West pilots to make peace: http://youtu.be/-mJUyYskVYI

 

[Bringupthebird]

USAPA can claim no credit for the benefits contained in the MOU. They were simply the folks that opened the envelope that APA sent. They never achieved any benefit worth the millions they extorted during their reign. They served no one well and should be held up as the pariah that they are. Enjoy your role in enabling them.

 

[Bringupthebird]

If the Nic only serves as the template for determining the distribution of seniority in lieu of USAPA's dismal failure to present a contract the pilots could vote on, it will be worth it.

USAPA was sold as being built from the line pilot up, but you all knew that it was a club from which a few could steal millions and many were denied their chance to vote. Hell, they couldn't even put the dues hike up for a vote. Chickensh-- from end to end.

 

[Bringupthebird]

FBW- So you now think the guy that dreamed up the B-scale is labor's friend, eh? Priceless!

 

[Turtle21]

"No."
-- Scott Kirby

 

[Bringupthebird]

"No."
-- Scott Kirby

Did you understand the context of Kirby's reply? He was asked if the Nicolau would be used after the joint contract. He was correct in answering "NO" because it will be used BEFORE that when the arbitrators put together the APA list and the USAPA (NIC) list.

AOL should press hard for the MOU to be considered a de-facto joint contract. Even though the pay and benefits are deferred until the POR, the east and west are accruing identical pay from a single document. Kirby also said that he would have every right after the POR to begin mixing crews and metal since they would be under the same contract (the MOU which becomes the MTA which USAPA's own literature defines as a contract).

Sorry boys, you flushed your separate ops firewall away with the MOU. Even though you didn't realize it, it was the smartest thing you ignorant klutzes have done in years!

 

[waveflyer]

No worries, I may not exactly have been a big fan of USAPA on here, but I would hate to see the USAir guys get a bad deal out of this. I always err on tho optimistic side, but I think ultimately this will be a good deal for all. It's gonna take awhile though. Hopefully everyone can just reshuffle the deck, forget about the past and just live with binding arbitration. You've all been through enough.

No need to reshuffle on the US side Dan, they already have an arbitrated award.

 

[Dan Roman]

No need to reshuffle on the US side Dan, they already have an arbitrated award.

I think you are correct that this times arbitrated award will have to include the Nic since it's never been overturned. But just like the USAPA leadership, I really don't know. My sentiments were to wishing ALL the USAir pilots well.

 

[slaquer5]

No worries, I may not exactly have been a big fan of USAPA on here, but I would hate to see the USAir guys get a bad deal out of this. I always err on tho optimistic side, but I think ultimately this will be a good deal for all. It's gonna take awhile though. Hopefully everyone can just reshuffle the deck, forget about the past and just live with binding arbitration. You've all been through enough.

Best idea yet. Just keep reshuffling until everyone is happy and likes the outcome. You are brilliant Dan.


Well I have to go feed my unicorns, i will come on later.