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AA/USAir non SLI?

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Hi General,

At worst USAPA served the East pilot group well by preserving seniority and growth on the East side for what will be at least 10 years and 3 months. Many of those pilots who would have been most affected will retire without having to endure the Nic award.

The top 500 pilots voted to protect their first officers and junior pilots.

The seniority and movement that would have otherwise been lost more than makes up for the loss of pay. Objectively, the loss of pay may also have positioned US Airways well for a merger.
You know that none of what you wrote is true.

First, by taking on the task of Representitive, it must represent ALL US pilots, not just those it sides with.

Secondly, under the NIC, your statement regarding growth only applies to those pilots who were furloughed at the time of the merger. The bulk of the pilots would have seen upgrades and advancement at very much the same rate, only many years earlier.

Thirdly, the senior pilots had no way to know that the folks they were helping would be so selfish, that they would subject them to BK wages for the remainder of their career in pursuit of an illegal seniority grab.

Lastly, had USAPA never been birthed, US may have been in a much stronger position and may have been able to expand as much or more than the merger provides, with all of the benefits going to the US pilots.

I know that you admit to yourself that you wish USAPA had failed in its representation bid. And now for all their failure, they want to extort an additional $2 million from its pilots to cover their poor decision to squander that same amount in legal fees for nothing.

Please retire or quit the industry and put an end to spread of the effects of your poor shortsighted decisions.

EAST PILOTS = LORENZO
 
You know that none of what you wrote is true.

How do you know that I know that?

I fully stand by my last post as either fact or possibility. For example, it is a fact that US Airways will maintain separate seniority lists for at least a total of 10 years and 3 months.


First, by taking on the task of Representitive, it must represent ALL US pilots, not just those it sides with.

I never said that USAPA did not serve the West group well, just that that "USAPA served the East pilot group well by..." USAPA recently represented the West pilot group well by negotiating a pay raise, enhanced job security and other QOL improvements. What a tremendous benefit it is that after so much gnashing of teeth that now USAPA will facilitate bringing West and East pilots together under the American Airlines and APA names.

This is a time to relax and be thankful. Merging with American means that you truly have won the lottery under USAPA's representation.


Secondly, under the NIC, your statement regarding growth only applies to those pilots who were furloughed at the time of the merger. The bulk of the pilots would have seen upgrades and advancement at very much the same rate, only many years earlier.

Yes, but Nic does not exist and you have no rights to it until after JCBA+SLI. Hence why your DFR is not ripe, which is why AOL is saber rattling now.

Instead of the bulk, now all east pilots are eligible for East movement and immune to the LAS closing. My statement regarding growth not only applies to furloughed pilots of yesteryear, but also to the pilot hiring and aircraft deliveries taking place today—hence why East pilots opted for what may be at least 10.25 years of separate operations.


Thirdly, the senior pilots had no way to know that the folks they were helping would be so selfish, that they would subject them to BK wages for the remainder of their career in pursuit of an illegal seniority grab.

The senior pilots at US Airways are happy. Age 65 gave them an extra 5 years at the top, growth and great schedules. Now a new generation of senior pilots is replacing them.

Lastly, had USAPA never been birthed, US may have been in a much stronger position and may have been able to expand as much or more than the merger provides, with all of the benefits going to the US pilots.

You're right. US Airways "may" have been in a much stronger position, but this is not practical thinking. Ill will, infighting, and overreaching from both East and West ALPA were the catalyst that gave US Airways the massive economic boost to be successful today. The inefficiencies of separate operations pale to the cost controls of bankruptcy era contracts.

This is a sweetheart scenario facilitated by Doug Parker: Divide Et Impera!


I know that you admit to yourself that you wish USAPA had failed in its representation bid. And now for all their failure, they want to extort an additional $2 million from its pilots to cover their poor decision to squander that same amount in legal fees for nothing.

I could care less about what USAPA did. Their past has nothing to do with me.

Please retire or quit the industry and put an end to spread of the effects of your poor shortsighted decisions.

Okay.

EAST PILOTS = LORENZO

No, East Pilots = West Pilots...

Both groups were equally disrespectful, over-reaching and disingenuous.


Bringupthebird, You may consider watching this video where I believe Bob Crandall encourages East/West pilots to make peace: http://youtu.be/-mJUyYskVYI
 
USAPA can claim no credit for the benefits contained in the MOU. They were simply the folks that opened the envelope that APA sent. They never achieved any benefit worth the millions they extorted during their reign. They served no one well and should be held up as the pariah that they are. Enjoy your role in enabling them.
 
If the Nic only serves as the template for determining the distribution of seniority in lieu of USAPA's dismal failure to present a contract the pilots could vote on, it will be worth it.

USAPA was sold as being built from the line pilot up, but you all knew that it was a club from which a few could steal millions and many were denied their chance to vote. Hell, they couldn't even put the dues hike up for a vote. Chickensh-- from end to end.
 
"No."
-- Scott Kirby
Did you understand the context of Kirby's reply? He was asked if the Nicolau would be used after the joint contract. He was correct in answering "NO" because it will be used BEFORE that when the arbitrators put together the APA list and the USAPA (NIC) list.

AOL should press hard for the MOU to be considered a de-facto joint contract. Even though the pay and benefits are deferred until the POR, the east and west are accruing identical pay from a single document. Kirby also said that he would have every right after the POR to begin mixing crews and metal since they would be under the same contract (the MOU which becomes the MTA which USAPA's own literature defines as a contract).

Sorry boys, you flushed your separate ops firewall away with the MOU. Even though you didn't realize it, it was the smartest thing you ignorant klutzes have done in years!
 
No worries, I may not exactly have been a big fan of USAPA on here, but I would hate to see the USAir guys get a bad deal out of this. I always err on tho optimistic side, but I think ultimately this will be a good deal for all. It's gonna take awhile though. Hopefully everyone can just reshuffle the deck, forget about the past and just live with binding arbitration. You've all been through enough.

No need to reshuffle on the US side Dan, they already have an arbitrated award.
 
No need to reshuffle on the US side Dan, they already have an arbitrated award.

I think you are correct that this times arbitrated award will have to include the Nic since it's never been overturned. But just like the USAPA leadership, I really don't know. My sentiments were to wishing ALL the USAir pilots well.
 
No worries, I may not exactly have been a big fan of USAPA on here, but I would hate to see the USAir guys get a bad deal out of this. I always err on tho optimistic side, but I think ultimately this will be a good deal for all. It's gonna take awhile though. Hopefully everyone can just reshuffle the deck, forget about the past and just live with binding arbitration. You've all been through enough.


Best idea yet. Just keep reshuffling until everyone is happy and likes the outcome. You are brilliant Dan.


Well I have to go feed my unicorns, i will come on later.
 
Did you understand the context of Kirby's reply? He was asked if the Nicolau would be used after the joint contract. He was correct in answering "NO" because it will be used BEFORE that when the arbitrators put together the APA list and the USAPA (NIC) list.

AOL should press hard for the MOU to be considered a de-facto joint contract. Even though the pay and benefits are deferred until the POR, the east and west are accruing identical pay from a single document. Kirby also said that he would have every right after the POR to begin mixing crews and metal since they would be under the same contract (the MOU which becomes the MTA which USAPA's own literature defines as a contract).

Sorry boys, you flushed your separate ops firewall away with the MOU. Even though you didn't realize it, it was the smartest thing you ignorant klutzes have done in years!

If you are going to tell us the context of Kirby's single word "No" answer then you could at least correctly explain the pleading/leading question that was asked. :D
 
Best idea yet. Just keep reshuffling until everyone is happy and likes the outcome. You are brilliant Dan.


Well I have to go feed my unicorns, i will come on later.

I hope Dan was joking here. Reshuffling the deck? Each group agreed to BINDING arbitration, including management. You don't get to reshuffle, sorry. I hope Dan understands that point. If your group agrees to it initially, then you must abide by it. Otherwise, you are a crybaby jackhole.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
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If you are going to tell us the context of Kirby's single word "No" answer then you could at least correctly explain the pleading/leading question that was asked. :D

Bringupthebird, you still need to correctly respond to my last reply before you get off subject with explaining the context of the word no.
 
I hope Dan was joking here. Reshuffling the deck? Each group agreed to BINDING arbitration, including management. You don't get to reshuffle, sorry. I hope Dan understands that point. If your group agrees to it initially, then you must abide by it. Otherwise, you are a crybaby jackhole.


Bye Bye---General Lee

General, when I wrote that I wasn't really thinking that they would throw out the nic. I really don't think they can throw out something that has been ruled on in a court. I was just thinking that they all need to realize that it's not possible for all the parties to agree on anything. So just let an arbitrator come up with a new list, (using the nic) build some fences and move on. My shuffling the deck is more of a way to say they need to put the continual legal civil war behind them.
 
Then you use the the wrong language when you say "RE"- shuffle-

There is no "RE-" anything. There's the Nic award as the official list from Usair and how that will be shuffled in with APA's list.
 
Then you use the the wrong language when you say "RE"- shuffle-

There is no "RE-" anything. There's the Nic award as the official list from Usair and how that will be shuffled in with APA's list.


I agree, it sounds different than how I meant it. Poor choice of words.
 
General, when I wrote that I wasn't really thinking that they would throw out the nic. I really don't think they can throw out something that has been ruled on in a court. I was just thinking that they all need to realize that it's not possible for all the parties to agree on anything. So just let an arbitrator come up with a new list, (using the nic) build some fences and move on. My shuffling the deck is more of a way to say they need to put the continual legal civil war behind them.

Thanks for the clarification. As long as the Westies get what they were awarded prior to a new SLI with the APA, then that would be fair IMO. (As long as the Westies aren't fenced out of the East growth they should have been enjoying right now)


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
The only legal contract acknowledging the Nic and its applicability is in a contract that will cease to exist, as agreed to by all parties to the new MOU, upon the POR approval. The West asked Kirby to agree that the Nic is effective at the POR, which would of course remove any doubt that the Nic would be merged with the APA list. The West pilot asked a long winded question pleading for Kirby to agree that the Nic will become effective immediately upon the POR but Kirby made it clear nothing was further from the truth. "No." His body language said even more. It was ridiculous to even ask him or attempt to get him to add any credibility to such a notion.
 
The only legal contract acknowledging the Nic and its applicability is in a contract that will cease to exist, as agreed to by all parties to the new MOU, upon the POR approval. The West asked Kirby to agree that the Nic is effective at the POR, which would of course remove any doubt that the Nic would be merged with the APA list. The West pilot asked a long winded question pleading for Kirby to agree that the Nic will become effective immediately upon the POR but Kirby made it clear nothing was further from the truth. "No." His body language said even more. It was ridiculous to even ask him or attempt to get him to add any credibility to such a notion.

No, I think Bird discredited that, saying the "No" remark was for using the NIC after the next SLI. It will likely be used PRIOR to the next SLI. What I find humorous is the East side being willing to do ANOTHER SLI via binding arbitration. The only thing wrong with the first one is that the Easties didn't like the outcome. Too bad, you and management signed on the bottom line, and eventually it will be correctly implemented. A lot of you "third listers" really don't want it to happen, keeping the senior Westies in a cage out in PHX. When it happens though, upgrades etc will vanish for you as Westies come in to CLT and PHL and take up upgrades they deserve. Your arguments are extremely transparent, and almost as bad as the Eastie's themselves. Shame on you. Integrity matters, and a lot of you lack it.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 
No, I think Bird discredited that, saying the "No" remark was for using the NIC after the next SLI. ....
There are only two problems... you are relying on Bird... and Bird wasn't accurate... And besides that no one has countered the fact that the only contract that had Nic in it is GONE and replaced at the POR... Oh, and besides that you are a poser. :D
 
No, Scott said that at the POR Effective date there would be no east or west pilots. This will occur prior to the SLI negotiations and it (MOU to MTA) triggers what is necessary for implementation of the Nic award. USAPA in it's literature defines the MTA as a contract. If USAPA decides to play the DOH hand, AOL will quickly have a judge impose an injuction which will stall the process indefinitely. This will please the west who will begin to assume their rightfully awarded bid positions with every vacancy bid. APA will happily go on their way filing the cards for a representation election (maybe USAPA will loan them their nifty little coffin for delivering the cards to the NMB). The only ones left out in the cold will be the east pilots who will go into a McKee spoinsored frenzy of "I told you so's" when they discovered they have flushed away the only remaining support to their separate ops firewall.

Kleenex anyone?
 
The only legal contract acknowledging the Nic and its applicability is in a contract that will cease to exist, as agreed to by all parties to the new MOU, upon the POR approval. The West asked Kirby to agree that the Nic is effective at the POR, which would of course remove any doubt that the Nic would be merged with the APA list. The West pilot asked a long winded question pleading for Kirby to agree that the Nic will become effective immediately upon the POR but Kirby made it clear nothing was further from the truth. "No." His body language said even more. It was ridiculous to even ask him or attempt to get him to add any credibility to such a notion.
That's not what the west Captain asked. Look it up.

Kirby does not decide when and how the Nic will be used. That ship has already sailed.
 
All kinda pointless as your lawyer jumped the gun again. Shoulda reread what the 9th said about coming back for the DFR. Nothing has happened.....has it? Can you bid CLT or I PHX? nope. Think the 9th pretty much said, go through the motions, when the dust settles and everything is done, THEN you can tell if you have a DFR or not. 9th basically stated, we can't work on assumptions or even bargaining positions....
 
There are only two problems... you are relying on Bird... and Bird wasn't accurate... And besides that no one has countered the fact that the only contract that had Nic in it is GONE and replaced at the POR... Oh, and besides that you are a poser. :D

You are forgetting the part about the last judge saying "disregarding the NIC award places USAPA on Dangerous Ground." You will lose. Bye!


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
All kinda pointless as your lawyer jumped the gun again. Shoulda reread what the 9th said about coming back for the DFR. Nothing has happened.....has it? Can you bid CLT or I PHX? nope. Think the 9th pretty much said, go through the motions, when the dust settles and everything is done, THEN you can tell if you have a DFR or not. 9th basically stated, we can't work on assumptions or even bargaining positions....

Hey, we all know the Easties disregarded a BINDING award. Eventually the West will win, we ALL know it. But, your new other half, the APA, don't want anything to do with your ridiculous fight, so they may push for a resolution prior to any new SLI. (They pretty much stated that in an earlier thread I created). So, you can waste time and wait, or settle with the award and move forward. Regardless, I can't wait to watch, especially third lister reaction.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 
No, Scott said that at the POR Effective date there would be no east or west pilots. This will occur prior to the SLI negotiations and it (MOU to MTA) triggers what is necessary for implementation of the Nic award. USAPA in it's literature defines the MTA as a contract. If USAPA decides to play the DOH hand, AOL will quickly have a judge impose an injuction which will stall the process indefinitely. This will please the west who will begin to assume their rightfully awarded bid positions with every vacancy bid. APA will happily go on their way filing the cards for a representation election (maybe USAPA will loan them their nifty little coffin for delivering the cards to the NMB). The only ones left out in the cold will be the east pilots who will go into a McKee spoinsored frenzy of "I told you so's" when they discovered they have flushed away the only remaining support to their separate ops firewall.

Kleenex anyone?

It's gonna be a re do. Keep dreaming. Funny how' all the uncomfortable questions now are if PHX will survive. Goes to prove that AW's
demise was just behind US.LAS dead...PHX ... The next PIT.. Dead. I really get sick of the "white knight" crap from the west pilots.I also fly for the reserves and I'm thankful that I have not delt with the bs over the last 7 years..a time better well spent serving my country.. I'm looking forward to being a part of the new American and moving on.
 
No, Scott said that at the POR Effective date there would be no east or west pilots. This will occur prior to the SLI negotiations and it (MOU to MTA) triggers what is necessary for implementation of the Nic award. USAPA in it's literature defines the MTA as a contract. If USAPA decides to play the DOH hand, AOL will quickly have a judge impose an injuction which will stall the process indefinitely. This will please the west who will begin to assume their rightfully awarded bid positions with every vacancy bid. APA will happily go on their way filing the cards for a representation election (maybe USAPA will loan them their nifty little coffin for delivering the cards to the NMB). The only ones left out in the cold will be the east pilots who will go into a McKee spoinsored frenzy of "I told you so's" when they discovered they have flushed away the only remaining support to their separate ops firewall.

Kleenex anyone?

I'm starting to think you are a poser too. Kirby didn't say any of that.
 
Can we get a cut and paste link to these Scott Kirby quotes?
 
It's gonna be a re do. Keep dreaming. Funny how' all the uncomfortable questions now are if PHX will survive. Goes to prove that AW's
demise was just behind US.LAS dead...PHX ... The next PIT.. Dead. I really get sick of the "white knight" crap from the west pilots.I also fly for the reserves and I'm thankful that I have not delt with the bs over the last 7 years..a time better well spent serving my country.. I'm looking forward to being a part of the new American and moving on.

A re-do? Can you do that on a divorce settlement also? How about at Judge Judy? Can you take your money back if you lose it all at poker at a casino? You Easties just don't seem to understand, and it will cost you.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

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