AA may not merge with anyone?

[Thebadcat1313]

That statement is absolute conjecture and assumes that AA would've had to react exactly the same way it did if AMR hadn't purchased twa. The billions in twa debt (not to mention the millions in DIP financing) and the useless STL hub caused a very substantial drain on the AA bottom line, thus forcing drastic measures. My conjectural statement is this: Had Carty not lept into this ill-advised venture, AA would've been in better financial shape and thus able to weather the post-9/11 downturn with much a much smaller percentage of shrinkage. The purchase of twa was the most monumentally unfortunate event in the 75 history of American Airlines...

Key word here being "post 9/11 downturn". Prior to 9/11, the TWA acquisition was hailed by most of the analysts as a brilliant move. Nobody doubts that AA would not have done the transaction post 9/11. Problem is, it's so dang hard to predict these things. The "substantial drain" on AA's bottom line came in large part due to the lopsided "integration" of the TWA pilots/flight attendants. AA simply could not draw down the fleet as neccessary after 9/11 because the two companies were on separate certificates and the number of furloughs required would have resulted in parking the TWA fleet. This was not an option. Had the groups been integrated in a manner consistent with, say, ALPA merger policy, the furloughs would have been deeper, sooner. This would have saved AA billions and put it on track to a quicker recovery.

With that being said, AA retains about 100 TWA airplanes and the 4% market share we brought to the table. There are only around 450 TWA pilots (out of 2350) and zero flight attendants left on the property. It's hard to quantify just how much of the current AA route structure is due to the TWA acquisition but, percentagewise, it's a lot more than that represented by the pilots and other employees that remain there.

 

[100 c.i.]

AAflyer,
I don't want this to turn into something worse than it already is. I, like you, am sick of AA threads turning into a bashing by a bunch of anonymous cowards.

I will always defer to gentleman's rules and will usually take any disagreement with a fellow AA pilot to PM's rather than a public message board. However, with regard to the above two statements: first, yes, AA does indeed DHD 777 pilots to cover trips in other bases, but NONE of those DHD's are due to an agreement such as Supp. CC and they don't cost the company nearly as much as the full-scale DHD's of entire crews to cover out-of-base flying. The two things, while seeming similar, are diametrically different...

With regard to your assertion that we don't DHD pilots from STL to ORD and DFW to fly their sequences, please go take a look at the DEC allocation sheet for SLT 767 D. You will find that the following sequences actually begin, end, or both with a scheduled DHD to/from DFW and ORD:

SEQ's: 30097, 30098, 30099, 30100, 30101, 30103, 30105, 30106, 30109, 30112, 30113, 30115, 30116, 30118, 30120, 30121, 30123, 30124, 30125, 30127, 30129, 30130, 30131, 30133, 30134, 30136, 30138, 30139, 30142, 30143, 30145, 30151, and 30152.

Also, while you're looking at that, take a gander at the STL S80 D allocations and look at how many of the sequences leave STL and spend the next 3-4 days bouncing in and out of ORD and DFW, never touching STL until the last leg home...

You are correct about the HNL flights. The entire SLT 767 I bidsheet consists of nothing but DHD's to DFW to cover the HNL flight and then a return DHD to STL from DFW...

ILS, I to think CC along with all the waste sucks, but dont blame that on the TWA pilots. If APA/AA would have gave us some form of integration CC would not exist. P.S. Thanks for giving me X-mass and Newyears off again!

 

[AA717driver]

I am starting a pool. When will the AA TWA bickering stop? First bet is on 10 years from now, it goes all the way to 30 years. Who's in?

Till the last TWA and AA pilots are gone who were on the property at the time of the integration. I'm waiting for newhires at AA so THEY can start bitching about the integration!

I'm sure there is still bickering between AirWisconsin and MVA guys. I KNOW there is still pi$$ing going on between TWA and OZ. Ditto NWA and Republic.

Better pace yourself, it's not going to go away anytime soon. TC

 

[aa73]

Till the last TWA and AA pilots are gone who were on the property at the time of the integration. I'm waiting for newhires at AA so THEY can start bitching about the integration!

I'm sure there is still bickering between AirWisconsin and MVA guys. I KNOW there is still pi$$ing going on between TWA and OZ. Ditto NWA and Republic.

Better pace yourself, it's not going to go away anytime soon. TC

Standar M.O. for every past merger/acquisition in the history of the airlines.

What we're gonna need now - once the recall is underway - is for EVERY pilot, regardless of background, to join in unity as AA pilots if we want the kind of contract we deserve. That is the main thing we should be discussing now!

73

 

[pylut]

Hey we screwed you.... but now you need to work with us. uh huh, I see.

how long will the conflict go on. Well, aa pilots will forever be the ones that screwed the TWA employees. aa'ers seem to have worked so hard in the last few years to really live up to all the unsavory nicknames and stereotypes associated with them. heck you even spawned a few new ones. That is aa's legacy.

 

[Mach8Forest]

That statement is absolute conjecture and assumes that AA would've had to react exactly the same way it did if AMR hadn't purchased twa. The billions in twa debt (not to mention the millions in DIP financing) and the useless STL hub caused a very substantial drain on the AA bottom line, thus forcing drastic measures. My conjectural statement is this: Had Carty not lept into this ill-advised venture, AA would've been in better financial shape and thus able to weather the post-9/11 downturn with much a much smaller percentage of shrinkage. The purchase of twa was the most monumentally unfortunate event in the 75 history of American Airlines...

Just curios, DID they give you an IQ test before they hired you?
Mach8Forest

 

[aa73]

Hey we screwed you.... but now you need to work with us. uh huh, I see.

how long will the conflict go on. Well, aa pilots will forever be the ones that screwed the TWA employees. aa'ers seem to have worked so hard in the last few years to really live up to all the unsavory nicknames and stereotypes associated with them. heck you even spawned a few new ones. That is aa's legacy.

Yeah, I really screwed you guys. I came up with the integration. I submitted it to AA and APA. In fact, I was also responsible for the massive furloughs after 9/11, SARS, the Iraq war, and any other disaster you'd like to name. Dang, why haven't I comitted suicide yet?

You ask, "How long will the conflict go on?" - and then read the rest of your post. As long as you keep posting stuff like this, it's anyone's guess. Thankfully most our fellow TWA/AA pilots have chosen to move on and look to the future in helping secure a better contract.

 

[Mach8Forest]

Standar M.O. for every past merger/acquisition in the history of the airlines.

What we're gonna need now - once the recall is underway - is for EVERY pilot, regardless of background, to join in unity as AA pilots if we want the kind of contract we deserve. That is the main thing we should be discussing now!

73

You want UNITY NOW. What a joke. Date of Hire Merger of something close and fair and you could have had this.
Take one step off that curve while picketing and I will reclaim my left seat instantly. Do you think that I am the only one that feels this way? How about 2 thousand red tails. Your Bean counters set you up with your own greed. You will never have security with 2000 angry pilots like myself that will replace you at the drop of a hat. Your Union of SCABS took our jobs, Jets, landing slots, and authorities and now you want the warm and comfy feeling of Unity. You AAholes are something special. Let me know when you start picketing, as I will cross it openly, proudly, and multiple times in my TWA uniform. We wont disguise our intentions or ourselves as your group did with your joke negotiations.
Mach8
.

 

[100 c.i.]

Yeah, I really screwed you guys. I came up with the integration. I submitted it to AA and APA. In fact, I was also responsible for the massive furloughs after 9/11, SARS, the Iraq war, and any other disaster you'd like to name. Dang, why haven't I comitted suicide yet?

You ask, "How long will the conflict go on?" - and then read the rest of your post. As long as you keep posting stuff like this, it's anyone's guess. Thankfully most our fellow TWA/AA pilots have chosen to move on and look to the future in helping secure a better contract.

Are some of you considering suicide, let us know how many please?

 

[pylut]

Yeah, I really screwed you guys. I came up with the integration. I submitted it to AA and APA. In fact, I was also responsible for the massive furloughs after 9/11, SARS, the Iraq war, and any other disaster you'd like to name. Dang, why haven't I comitted suicide yet?

You ask, "How long will the conflict go on?" - and then read the rest of your post. As long as you keep posting stuff like this, it's anyone's guess. Thankfully most our fellow TWA/AA pilots have chosen to move on and look to the future in helping secure a better contract.

I wasn't asking... I was answering the question. Reread, the conflict is the result of your actions and will always be there.

Oh yeah.... i know it wasn't you it was the evil union. it was the apa it wasn't really people, it was just those 3 letters. That seems to be the mantra. Well hate to break it to you (again) you are the apa, it is your union, you fund and support it. If it is not representing you then you speak out and effect change.

My flying career was negatively impacted by two unsavory groups. First by aa's motley crew. Second by radical Isalamic terroists on 9/11. Both groups are evil. Both groups deserve a reckoning.

by the way, how would you know how most of TWA pilots feel. You haven't met them, you were a key part of their furlough. The very small percentage you have met are the ones that have remained employed. Think their views might be slightly different than the bulk of the TWA aviators? I would venture to guess that the majority won't be wishing you and your family any good tidings this x-mas.

 

[aa73]

I will not further the destruction of this thread by attempting to argue over the points. Most of our pilots feel the same exact animosity towards your group as you do towards ours. This is standard in every past merger/acquisition, and will never change.

I spent many years in a TWA family town, Saint Louis. I knew (and know) a lot more TWA people than you think, and despite the few radicals that come on here spouting hatred and fury, you will never represent the quality of TWA aviators I personally know, who talk nothing like you - and they are furloughed as well.

As for this thread, no matter what immature name calling you'd like to resort to, I will continue to represent myself and my pilot group the way we are known - with respect and professionalism. Good day,

73

 

[AAflyer]

I will not further the destruction of this thread by attempting to argue over the points. Most of our pilots feel the same exact animosity towards your group as you do towards ours. This is standard in every past merger/acquisition, and will never change.

I spent many years in a TWA family town, Saint Louis. I knew (and know) a lot more TWA people than you think, and despite the few radicals that come on here spouting hatred and fury, you will never represent the quality of TWA aviators I personally know, who talk nothing like you - and they are furloughed as well.

As for this thread, no matter what immature name calling you'd like to resort to, I will continue to represent myself and my pilot group the way we are known - with respect and professionalism. Good day,

73

Excellent AA73,

I agree 100%. Moderators, if ths continues may I ask that you terminate this thread. Mach8, and Pylut and 100 ci while I truly can NEVER appreciate what you went through regardless of your words and actions I wish you the best.

Regards,

AAflyer

 

[pylut]

Most of our pilots feel the same exact animosity towards your group as you do towards ours.

My Point exactly. the strife will be endless, pretty gloomy huh?....enjoy.

my pilot group the way we are known - with respect and professionalism.

Wow.... really, I mean WOW!!!!

Internet communication is so tough because you can't see the authors expression. I can't tell if you said that with a straight face or not. If you did, if you truly think that is how others in the industry perceive your airline.....wow.


I suppose you feel that the rest of the aviation world looks so favorably upon you because of your outstanding safety record, integrity in dealing with integration issues, terrific rapport with management, harmonious relationship between labor groups, and super positve workplace vibe.

Wow...

 

[ils2minimums]

Just curios, DID they give you an IQ test before they hired you?
Mach8Forest

Take one step off that curve while picketing and I will reclaim my left seat instantly.
Mach8
.

Yeah, it came right after the spelling test, Professor... I guess you never made it that far in the interview process...

 

[Mach8Forest]

Yes I did not use the spell checker, now care to talk about the facts SCAB.
Mach8

 

[Mach8Forest]

WOW is correct. Do they really not know how the rest of the industry views them? They must get a lobotomy and a set of blinders I believe when they go through initial in Berlin.
Mach8Forest

 

[ils2minimums]

Yes I did not use the spell checker, now care to talk about the facts SCAB.
Mach8

Which facts would those be, dou(hebag? You asked a typical smartass question about whether or not I was given an IQ test, and I gave you a typical smartass answer... As to any other facts, we're gonna have different views on those, both skewed to our favor by our individual experiences...

Fact is, you've not contributed anything but vitriol in any AA discussion and I've returned the kindness...

You hate us, big f'ing deal...

 

[Mach8Forest]

I think Hate is way too kind of a word. Here is a repost for educational purposes. We will fight on to right your wrong. The justice system is not perfect, hell look at OJ. In fact now that I think about it he would be a great spokesman for the APA.​

The posts by some of you arrogant APA/AA guys are incredible. You now want to talk about UNITY?You are the Bean Counters dream of Unionism. Ready, Able, and Willing SCABS at their finest. Oh you did not cross a picket line but you stole the jobs of a unionized pilot group that were not yours. This is worse than a SCAB in my book. Your group is not a union at all but just simply a special interest group that spreads miss information among its masses in order to justify its wrongs. Then its repeated like a parrot by some idiot. Can you answer this? When should a true union use corporate finances as a weapon to strip someone else of their careers to better their own? NEVER! Lucky for you that safety records or TWA’s past merger policy was not the vehicle of our seniority.
This merger reminded me of something I witnessed in 1989 pushing back in an L1011 at JFK bound for Lisbon. Seagulls on top of our Jetway attacked a pigeon as we were pushing back. The pigeon appeared to have been killed as it lay on its side bleeding as we were starting the engines. I asked the captain I was flying with what was that all about. He believed that the seagulls were sick of competing for food and decidedcollectively to kill this pigeon.
National Unity = APA should have taken pilots when they took TWA’s London Routes as United did with PA but they did not.
Career Expectations = In the 80’s when I was hired TWA at that time carried more people to London than AA did to the whole continent of Europe. We were stapled behind some of your pilots that were working on their private pilots license when we were flying (on Property) to cities such as London, Paris, Lisbon, and Athens.
Reality = AA could not grow internally fast enough to compete so they had to purchase someone to be the biggest.
THE REASON. = A decade plus later and with the ego threat of not being the biggest Airline against United, AA went into action. But how could they do it cleanly and without Icahn getting into AA.
Setting the Stage = How did TWA go Bankrupt when it entered that winter with more cash than it had in 7 prior years? Every other Airline was making some money at the time and TWA although not on par had proportionally similar trends? Why did cash strapped TWA spend over 80 million pulling out of European city pairs and paying heavy employee severance fines and penalties? Wasn’t Cash Critical? DUH!
Berlin was conducting the Orchestra and directing the play long before the curtain opened.
WHY TWA? =Lets think about this for a moment with some reason. Here sits TWA, an East/ West flow airline with a big hub (STL) sandwiched between AA’s two Major East/ West flow hubs (DFW, ORD) and was hurting AA East/West yields. TWA also had over a hundred east coast landing slots (88 in NY) with facilities, Hangers, and gates on both coasts. Their reservation system was worth millions on the market. After the demise of Eastern and Pan Am, AA enjoyed virtually no competition on very high yield routes in the Caribbean. Here sits TWA again as they were developing and growing a SJU mini Hub. They became the only future hub threat in the Caribbean with over 60 flights per day and growing out of SJU. I knew when they delayed the start of our MIA – SJU flights something smelled badly. TWA also had Route authority’s beyond imagination for an expanding AA airline.
Our Past Merger = As far as the Ozark merger is concerned only one guy in any merger believes he did not get screwed and he is number one. The rest feel that even with a date of hire scenario with fences like the TWA/OZ merger that they somehow lost something. I have friends on both sides of the fence. I can tell you that when I was an engineer in NY on the L1011 some of my favorite Captains including the number one man on that equipment were Green (OZ).
The Future = Mergers with lopsided past hiring dates create additional problems among pilots and their ego’s of who should get what. AA and Reno Air is a good example as they were a young airline bought by an older seniority. The real test for the industry will be the AWA and USAIR outcomeor when the regionals start to merge.
We Could have had Unity. AA and TWA’s pilot seniority hiring dates and seats were super close as 1989 hires were checking out as captains at both carriers. There was no need for the slaughter of our livelihoods other than greed and insecurity. A 5+ year or more fence or the Tannen proposal would have sufficed. Before the AA purchase, TWA pilots had East and West coast domiciles. After the AA purchase Berlin shoved us all into STL so AA pilots could have all the International, Transcons + Caribbean. t.
Past Precedent = Correct me if I am wrong but didn’t Nashville Eagle (APA) give bankrupt Air Virginia (ALPA) pilots date of hire with fences in an exact buyout scenario?
Unity ?????? = Look in the rear view mirror my AA friends and remember the words APA used during the slashing of our livelihoods and families well being. This industries fate is still unpredictable. There is no corporate crystal ball in this industry. You allowed radicals who applied ignorant self-serving beliefs for their own advantage to lead you. Now you want us to get over it and talk about Unity. You have damaged this occupation beyond repair. The APA should have led by example by doing the right thing. Sit back now and watch other carriers pilots and the regionals emulate you. These carriers’ bean counters will use their pilot’s greed as a weapon like AA did to keep this profession destabilized. True security and a National Union is only a dream with the likes of you. See you on the Picket line I hope.
Mach8

​

 

[AA717driver]

Is there a moderator in the house? TC

 

[Draginass]

Hopefully Arpey has learned his lesson and AA will not repeat the buffonery of the past by buying airlines, squandering a load of money, then shutting them down, keeping the employees and forcing a seniority fist-fight.

This is no good for anyone. TWA should have been left alone to sink or swim by it's own devices. If it sank, then AA could compete for the divested assets that made sense to own.

Right after the announcement, you could hear the champaign corks popping in St Louis, but I remember the somber sense of "hear we go again" in the AA crew rooms. The old timer's at AA knew what they were talking about.

 

[Mach8Forest]

Right after the announcement, you could hear the champaign corks popping in St Louis
Maybe Compton opened and popped the Champaign corks because of their Golden P's but the employees did not celebrate. We were preparing for the AWA merger as we had signed on for our first Domestic Code share.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YayAONi07s0.

 

[XTW]

Where's my beer Mach8 ?


X

 

[Mach8Forest]

Hello XTW,
I have your beer waiting in Orlando. A lot cheaper than Paris where I incurred this Debt. Paris France you AAholes not Paris Texas or Kentucky. I incurred this debt while you senior to me AAholes were popping your zits and thinking about furthering your Career expectations for your private license.
Mach8
Remember this XTW I am in it with expectations!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LekiIzlHEds

 

[Way2Broke]

Is there a moderator in the house? TC

While the the debate is hot, but I don't see anyone breaking any flight info rules. Try to keep the flame to a minimum guys, I don't want to lock down the thread. The thread is on the "watch" list.

 

[XTW]

Hello XTW,
I have your beer waiting in Orlando.

Remember this XTW I am in it with expectations!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LekiIzlHEds

I was in Orlando in November. No you, no beer.:uzi:

Good thing they only photo'd your back in the shadows. Would've cost them a new camera!


X

 

[aa73]

I suppose you feel that the rest of the aviation world looks so favorably upon you because of your outstanding safety record, integrity in dealing with integration issues, terrific rapport with management, harmonious relationship between labor groups, and super positve workplace vibe.

Wow...

Thank you much. My aviation record is indeed outstanding, my integrity in dealing with integration issues is perfect (never done one yet), my rapport with my chiefs is actually pretty good (they are managament), my relationship with the FAs is groovy baby! and above all, I have a SUPER positive workplace attitude that just bounces off the walls with joy and happiness.

Ahh! Am I supposed to care what the rest of the aviation world thinks, now? When I have it this good?

Happy holidays, folks! :beer:
73

 

[Mach8Forest]

I have a SUPER positive workplace attitude that just bounces off the walls with joy and happiness
Ahh! Am I supposed to care -
Happy holidays, folks! :beer:
73

You should care as you have most likely occupied a seat for over 3 years that is truly not yours. I bet that your a mid to late 90's hire F/O flying the 80 correct? You have no idea what kind of life damage you and your pilot group have done to so many TWA pilots all in the name of greed or should I say unity. Your flight attnds are even worse as if thats posible.
Happy Holidays to you.
Mach8

 

[Mach8Forest]

XTW,
Did you ever fly with Ted D out of JFK. He commuted out of LAX and flew mostly International. I remember when I trimmed the throttles on the 1011 at T/O he would hand me and all his engineers a Banana. Lots of great guys on that bird and lots of memories. Hope all is well with you and sorry about Nov as I just moved this month to Orlando. I hope to quit stepping on those peelings that you throw out after your done eating since our furlough.
Contact me when in Orlando
Mach8

 

[Gorilla]

After a substantial hiatus from FI, I return to find not much has changed. Great thread! Informative, fresh, and a good read.

 

[Mach8Forest]

While the the debate is hot, but I don't see anyone breaking any flight info rules. Try to keep the flame to a minimum guys, I don't want to lock down the thread. The thread is on the "watch" list.

What happened to the last page and the NWA pilots remarks?
Mach8