A Southwest pilot perspective

[SWA Bubba]

Uh, On everyone's six, I think you and others missed my point. I'm not saying the pilots are not as good as our pilots, I'm saying the airline isn't the equal. I think most of those guys (esp Maru) knew what I meant, but jumped on the point HE wanted to argue instead. In fact, he was so adamant to change my meaning, that he said it twice.

I'm not talking types of planes either, or international flying. I'm talking the COMPANY. You allowed that SWA is bigger, but you believe (or at least wrote) that that's the only thing SWA has over ATN, while you're better in that you fly international. Really? THAT's your argument? Hell, Volaris does international flying, and those guys get paid what GL gets paid. It's all about the quality, viablilty, and economics of the company. Please tell me you're not really suggesting that quality and viability and economics are equal.

Some examples:
SW: never furloughed; never failed to turn an annual profit since 1974; industry-leading contract (wages, benefits, working conditions, etc). The envy (as a job, I mean) of the entire airline world since 9/11, and has exponentially more people applying to work here than anyone else (incl current Airtran pilots).
ATN: Insufficient contract with MUCH lower wages and benefits (pre-constructive notice), so much so that you voted to strike at 96-98%. Already walking picket lines and bitching about management.

Anyway, the point I was making was that you seem to think that SWA pilots should have the same perspective as you (which apparently the only "right" perspective), and therefore, not giving you DOH or relative is being unfair. I'm not attacking you; I'm telling you that we see it differently. Why is that so hard to understand?

In your last post you seem to imply that our companies are exactly equal, and pilots should be able to walk back and forth in equal seniority. Is that what you're saying, or am I missing something?

Bubba

 

[737 Driver]

SWA Bubba, be very careful. oy will start sending you nude photos of him/herself. I puked when I saw 'it'.
He/she is very strange.

 

[OMNIDC10FO]

I think your team is ready to give a great opening statement to the arbitrators if it gets that far, and see what happens. It's very likely you will be surprised with the end results, and it will be binding.


Godspeed!


OYS

So what your saying is that Airtran will fare better if they go to arbitration? Interesting.

 

[Dash Power]

New to this forum, first time poster. However, Reading PPRuNe and SWAPA forums containing copied Airtran postings from this and other boards has given me a taste of some of Airtran's more vocal opinionists. (although, to be fair, both airlines have their share of forum blowhards lobbing grenades at each other). I'd like to offer the perspective of the average SW pilot in response to Airtran claims of injustice, inequity, and the general idea that SWA and SWAPA are out to screw them and steal their seniority.

Here's an analogy: Suppose Sept 2010's announcement was different. Instead of hearing that Fornaro sold ATN to SWA, instead he announced that ATN had bought Great Lakes Airlines. SWA was nowhere in the mix. Further, he was commited to keeping all the employees and providing "fair and equitable" integration.

So here comes Great Lakes' NC, and they say that all they want is fair. So far, so good, right? However, a two-year GL Capt there expects to still be a Capt at the new, integrated ATN with your contract (much better than his), and and of course, double his money. Then a four-year GL Capt mentions that since he's at 10% of his seniority list, he expects to still be at 10%. After all, he holds weekends off, and expects to keep doing so. It's only fair, he says. And so on. How do you think the average AirTran pilot would react? Do you see where I'm going here?

Before you lynch me, I'm not actually equating Airtran to Great Lakes. In fact, I used this widely disparate example just to illustrate my point. And while the difference between SWA and ATN is certainly not as big as the difference between ATN and GL, there IS a big difference. It is NOT a merger of equals. Despite what ALPA national may be telling you, everyone knows this fact. They just don't want to admit it.

Anyway, for you guys who just can't believe that SWAPA would be so heartless and openly attempt to "steal" your seniority, I just want you to understand where WE are coming from. You have your perspective, and we have ours. And after all, the word "fair" is in the eye of the beholder.

I'll post some more "average" SW guy perspective later.

Bubba

How about instead of an airline named Great Lakes, it is a Five year old airline flying 717's named Northeast. Their average hiring requirements were 1000 total with 100 multi. Their Captains earn 85,000 and their FO's 60,000. And all their contract details were equally as different as between SWA and Airtran. Financially the company has had their problems in years one or two, but now they hold their own but the future is not as certain as Airtrans.

Relative seniority or DOH sound fair with their "entitled" 70% gain in pay and benefits?

It is a good example of differences of opinion.

 

[On Your Six]

So what your saying is that Airtran will fare better if they go to arbitration? Interesting.

On a binding SLI? Yes, if it happens.


Godspeed!


OYS

 

[SWA Bubba]

Another example for On My Six:

Suppose I walked into ATN one day in Aug 2010 (you know,... before...) with a wagon-load of SWA badges, and said that anyone who wanted to come with me would be guaranteed a spot in the next new-hire class. Type ratings and our minimums not required. I'll bet I could have taken 90% of your F/Os and not just a few of your Capts. Before you get all huffy and claim that that's not true, our People department has literally hundreds of applications from active Airtran pilots which says it is true. Some of those aps are from active Airtran capts, I might add. And we both know that there would be a lot more Airtran pilot aps with SWA, if not the fact that a bunch of your F/Os don't meet our mins yet and couldn't have applied.

How 'bout this: If I made that offer and said that in addition, everyone would be pay-protected, I'll bet I'd get ALL the F/Os and a heck of a lot of your Capts as well. We both know it's true. ATN pilots would drop the ALPA-on-strike signs they were working on, and rush in a caravan to Dallas as fast as they could.

But now that the acquisition deal went through, things seem to have changed somewhat. Since ALPA national has assured you that our contract and money are your God-given right, and that we have to take you; now you're singing a different tune. Suddenly, we're equals in every way. Suddenly, Airtran was just as great of an employment opportunity as Southwest.

Anyway, like I said, this is the perspective of the average SWA pilot. We're all thinking, "how can they actually say that with a straight face?" I'm telling you this for your information. Not because we believe we're superior people, but rather that SWA is a superior company compared to Airtran. I'm not trying to be personal, or run down Airtran's worth, I'm simply illustrating my point that we are not equals in terms of companies.

Bubba

 

[maru657]

SW: never furloughed; never failed to turn an annual profit since 1974; industry-leading contract (wages, benefits, working conditions, etc). The envy (as a job, I mean) of the entire airline world since 9/11, and has exponentially more people applying to work here than anyone else (incl current Airtran pilots).
The key phrase is annual profit. Just barely. Since 9/11? That ain't that long ago. Shortly prior to 9/11, people were leaving southwest to go to united. The last wonderkind.

 

[e120pilot]

SWA Bubba,

The point of negotiations is that each side starts with a wish list and eventually compromises to the point where everyone can live with the result. The process agreement which was signed by both sides has a clear path for the seniority list to be resolved either through a negotiated list or if need be an arbitrated list. If you feel so strongly that anyone should understand how superior SWA is to AT, then why are you guys so worried about this going to arbitration? Doesn't seem the "golden rule" is being applied to the pilots of AirTran when the rules of the game are changed in the 2nd quarter. SWA/SWAPA has now decided that they will take their ball and go home if they don't win.

 

[Bake]

Well, it aint pre 9/11/2001. it is now. In 1965 no one wanted to come to SWA. In fact even in 1970 no one wanted to come to SWA. Let's talk here and now. Not everyone wants to come to SWA but alot do. Those are the facts. Whatta, iffa, shoulda, coulda.

 

[SWA/FO]

Yep, not a merger of equals, ATN has not grasped that special landing technique that southwest seems to have perfected. ATN pilots are still too busy practicing CATIII landings and international operations.

Whoa maybe you can show us how to shoot a CAT III.