A Southwest pilot perspective

[SWA Bubba]

More for On Your Six (by God, I'm gonna' get him to see our point of view if it kills me!):

Looking at it another way, those applications mean that nearly 500 of your pilots (incl the 60 or 70 who already have quit ATN for SWA) have already indicated their opinion, in writing, that being stapled to the bottom of our list, sitting a year of probation, and buying their own type rating, was superior to what they had at Airtran. What does that tell you? What do you think it tells the rest of the airline world?

There was even several active Airtran pilots in our hiring pool for the 2 years or so we didn't have new-hire classes. They were already hired but waiting. Had SWA not bought ATN, they would have jumped at the chance to start at the bottom like every SWA pilot before them. However, since SWA did buy ATN, when we called for class up, all but one turned it down. They had previously believed it was an opportunity of a lifetime, but now they declined, thinking ALPA could get them more with their hardcore tactics. That sounds less like "fair," and more like "opportunism" to me.

Southwest pilot perspective. Just so you don't wonder why the average SW pilot thinks ALPA MEC turning down the AIP smacked of greed.

Bubba

 

[Bake]

Doesn't seem the "golden rule" is being applied to the pilots of AirTran when the rules of the game are changed in the 2nd quarter. SWA/SWAPA has now decided that they will take their ball and go home if they don't win.

The golden rule is being applied as it is applied to our customers and other employees. To our competion, we will be there when you are in need. When AMR went off the RWY in LIT, SWA flew 2 planes there in support of AMR. During the hurricane of 2005 (???) in HOU. I flew a plane to help out the people of that area at the full expense of SWA. We live the golden rule everyday. When it comes to competition and business, we are all business. In fact, you could say that you are not living by the golden rule by being greedy. Godsmack, Greed is a great song if you are in doubt.

 

[Wolf King]

SWA Bubba, be very careful. oy will start sending you nude photos of him/herself. I puked when I saw 'it'.
He/she is very strange.

Funny, I got one too. He was wrestling a naked midget, not sure which one was the midget....

 

[redflyer65]

But now that the acquisition deal went through, things seem to have changed somewhat. Since ALPA national has assured you that our contract and money are your God-given right
Bubba

Unbelievably accurate Bubba. OYS will never admit defeat though. Heck, he/she doesn't even know the DL seniority list..

RF

 

[redflyer65]

The key phrase is annual profit. Just barely. Since 9/11? That ain't that long ago. Shortly prior to 9/11, people were leaving southwest to go to united. The last wonderkind.

Really? Name another airline that's done better.

 

[SWA Bubba]

e120 pilot,

First, thanks for being civil. I'm not so much trying to push the opinion that SWA is superior, but rather get some of your most vocal posters to see OUR perspective. Their posts seem to think we're stealing from ATN since we don't agree with them (about equality, that is).

And I agree 100% with you about negotiations. This is where -I- feel ALPA was not acting in good faith. Let's talk about the negotiations: SWAPA shows up to the table with the industry-leading contract (in all respects; not just far superior compensation). ALPA shows up to the table with superior seniority (due to a lot of things: younger company, some turnover, etc.) Do you agree with that so far?

Anyway, SWAPA says let's negotiate. We'll trade some of ours for some of yours. Seems fair to me. We've got the money; you've got the seniority. Wait a minute, ALPA says. That's the company's money, not yours. We're entitled to it anyway. But these are our seats, and our seniority, and we want to keep it.

Do you see where I'm going? Either it's SWAPA's contract/money that we earned through years of hard work and negotiation, AND it's ALPA's seniority and seats, and let's make a trade; OR it all belongs to the company, and all us pilots are sitting around with our thumbs up our behinds. Pick one. ALPA can't say, "it's the company's money so you can't trade it, but it's our personal seats and seniority, so we don't have to trade it."

However, that's exactly what ALPA seems to be saying. I realize that's an ALPA national thing, and not necessarily what an average Airtran line pilot may believe. And please see my last post about a significant portion of your pilot group previously asking to be stapled to our list (by applying, that is); but now the same group seems to be demanding equality and their original seniority simply because ALPA says they can. That has nothing to do with "fair." Or negotiating, for that matter.

Thanks for listening and being civil. I really hope you understand that I'm just trying to explain what the view is from our side of the fence.

Bubba

 

[FDJ2]

I would expect that any pilot group in a merger scenario would be treated with respect, not threats and coercion and that a fair process would be followed. If good faith negotiations fail and if SWAPA is confident in their position, present it to an arbitrator. SWAPA should make their best case before the arbitrator and at the end of the day accept the award, integrate the AAI pilots and move on as one pilot group.

Unfortunately, due to fear and hubris, SWAPA has taken a different path, one which will ultimately lead to dysfunction.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Unfortunately, due to fear and hubris, SWAPA has taken a different path, one which will ultimately lead to dysfunction.

Correct. The GLUX example is erroneous. You can't compare a 1900 operator to a 737 operator. The "career expectations" of SWA and AAI pilots are essentially identical...737 CA.

Therefore, the seniority earned at each carrier is also essentially identical.

This SLI merger screams for DoH.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Correct. The GLUX example is erroneous. You can't compare a 1900 operator to a 737 operator. The "career expectations" of SWA and AAI pilots are essentially identical...737 CA.

Therefore, the seniority earned at each carrier is also essentially identical.

This SLI merger screams for DoH.

Have to disagree with you here. The "seat expectations" (i.e. what we actually do and fly to earn a paycheck) may be essentially identical (737 CA), but the "career expectations" (i.e. how well can I provide for my family and retirement, benefits, job security, etc.) are wildly different. There's no one who can debate that in a serious tone. Not even you.

Otherwise how do you explain the massive number of Airtran pilots who wanted to quit and start over at SWA?

And I wasn't really comparing 1900s to 737s. I was illustrating differences. What if GL bought some 737s? THEN, can their four-year CA integrate into your list and contract at his 10% seniority?

What you're doing is changing MY argument to suit what YOU want the facts to be.

Bubba

 

[waveflyer]

Fubi- is it safe to assume that you troll these boards bc you're an older Alaska pilot and if Wn buys you, DOH would be in your best interests?

I'd contend that most WNers joined SWA for more reasons that to be just a "737 capt"- most of us are privileged to be part of the company and culture- but also hitch are wagons to the business model. The business model allows sustainable high pay, not the fact that we use 737s.

So I'd rephrase your career expectation- AT (and you) have the career expectation to be hub and spoke 737 capts in volatile, adversarial environments. And WN has the career expectation of being hybrid point to point 737 capts in a stable, synergistic, mutually productive environment.

IMHO- there's a difference.

But then again- I'm not as socialistic as the average airline pilot. (though I am liberal) And I gave up my number at the legacy where I had 777 career expectations.

And for those calling out Herb and GARY'S honor-- that's ridiculous and you know it- you're just not seeing how ALPA going for every inch they can through their legal rights would ripple through all work groups and multiply. You can't furlough in 2009, and then call out the people who did not despite many of the same challenges. That's just not right. If Herb and GK take a firmer stance with you, that's a pretty good sign that your side is the one messing up. JMO

 

[SWA Bubba]

Unfortunately, due to fear and hubris, SWAPA has taken a different path, one which will ultimately lead to dysfunction.

Correction. SWA, not SWAPA has taken a different path. In case you hadn't noticed, GK and management is running this show, not SWAPA. That's also much to the chagrin of a lot of pilots in SWAPA.

Bubba

 

[Fubijaakr]

Correction. SWA, not SWAPA has taken a different path. In case you hadn't noticed, GK and management is running this show, not SWAPA. That's also much to the chagrin of a lot of pilots in SWAPA.

That is a true statement. And I don't believe the posters here have a clue what the God King is thinking.

And I wasn't really comparing 1900s to 737s. I was illustrating differences. What if GL bought some 737s? THEN, can their four-year CA integrate into your list and contract at his 10% seniority?

Reminds me of the saying: "If 'Ifs and Buts' were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas."

Your premise is faulty on the face of it. GLUX doesn't fly 737s. Period. So to address your facetious premise would be just as faulty.

In fact, AAI and SWA pilots have the same "career expectations." Career expectations historically differentiated between widebody and narrowbody CA seats. Ask a Republic pilot how that works.

For you to apply "career expectations" to wages is flat wrong and won't last a NYC minute with an arbitrator. But, go ahead and argue the "Shuttle America" theory.

Then belly up to the bar for a BIG helping of crow.

I can't wait to laugh in your faces when this is all over. You'll be ashamed to wear those ridiculous flag ties in public.

 

[On Your Six]

Another example for On My Six:

Suppose I walked into ATN one day in Aug 2010 (you know,... before...) with a wagon-load of SWA badges, and said that anyone who wanted to come with me would be guaranteed a spot in the next new-hire class. Type ratings and our minimums not required. I'll bet I could have taken 90% of your F/Os and not just a few of your Capts. Before you get all huffy and claim that that's not true, our People department has literally hundreds of applications from active Airtran pilots which says it is true. Some of those aps are from active Airtran capts, I might add. And we both know that there would be a lot more Airtran pilot aps with SWA, if not the fact that a bunch of your F/Os don't meet our mins yet and couldn't have applied.

How 'bout this: If I made that offer and said that in addition, everyone would be pay-protected, I'll bet I'd get ALL the F/Os and a heck of a lot of your Capt as well. We both know it's true. ATN pilots would drop the ALPA-on-strike signs they were working on, and rush in a caravan to Dallas as fast as they could.

But now that the acquisition deal went through, things seem to have changed somewhat. Since ALPA national has assured you that our contract and money are your God-given right, and that we have to take you; now you're singing a different tune. Suddenly, we're equals in every way. Suddenly, Airtran was just as great of an employment opportunity as Southwest.

Anyway, like I said, this is the perspective of the average SWA pilot. We're all thinking, "how can they actually say that with a straight face?" I'm telling you this for your information. Not because we believe we're superior people, but rather that SWA is a superior company compared to Airtran. I'm not trying to be personal, or run down Airtran's worth, I'm simply illustrating my
point that we are not equals in terms of companies.

Bubba

Bubba,

I understand your point, I really do. UAL was a lot like this in the early 90s, full of company pride that bordered on cockiness. It's one thing to believe inthis yourself, and another to try to convince others of the same. Some companies do pay better and have better benefits, and probably do have stacks of resumes waiting for a chance. That's great and all, but a lot of that doesn't matter in arbitration. Pay and benefits don't really matter. In fact, in the last successful mainline merger with a SLI, the payrates and benefits were blended between the two groups BEFORE the arbitration happened. The SLI came down to what each brought to the table, plane wise, hub wise, size wise. If you are bigger, you would probably have a better ratio. If you are an older airline, you might get more of the top spots. I missed my current airline's arbitration, but I watched it and have talked to many who had gone through it. You just have to ride the roller coaster and try not to alienate your future brothers over there, because some may turn out to be your captain someday.


Godspeed!


OYS

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba,

I understand your point, I really do. UAL was a lot like this in the early 90s, full of company pride that bordered on cockiness. It's one thing to believe inthis yourself, and another to try to convince others of the same. Some companies do pay better and have better benefits, and probably do have stacks of resumes waiting for a chance. That's great and all, but a lot of that doesn't matter in arbitration. Pay and benefits don't really matter. In fact, in the last successful mainline merger with a SLI, the payrates and benefits were blended between the two groups BEFORE the arbitration happened. The SLI came down to what each brought to the table, plane wise, hub wise, size wise. If you are bigger, you would probably have a better ratio. If you are an older airline, you might get more of the top spots. I missed my current airline's arbitration, but I watched it and have talked to many who had gone through it. You just have to ride the roller coaster and try not to alienate your future brothers over there, because some may turn out to be your captain someday.


Godspeed!


OYS

Unlike many others on this forum, I'm trying not to alienate ANYBODY. I started off simply trying to demonstrate SWA pilots' point of view. Everyone from ATN on this forum seems to think that SWA pilots are arrogant, "seniority-stealing" pricks because we don't agree with them. That's just not the case. And, of course, for my trouble, I've been labeled an arrogant prick just for daring to civily point out that I didn't agree with them. You did a little of that yourself, don't you think?

As far as SLIs go, everyone is different, and I suspect this one will be vastly different then any other. Yes, I'm proud of the company I work for, but I really believe SWA is different in this regard. ALPA seems to assume arbitration is the be-all/end-all, and plans for that from the outset. Personally, I don't think Gary would let it go to arbitration or allow an arbitrated list to be integrated. <NOTE TO EVERYONE: don't flame me! I'm not threatening anyone; that's just my personal opinion, and I could be wrong!> Remember, this is NOT an ALPA airline. ALPA rules and precedence don't really apply here.

And to you personally, I assumed you were an ATN pilot from the way you posted. Other posters on this thread even indicated you were. I guess you can color me confused. If you're not, then I suppose I shouldn't have directed my "education campaign" in your direction.

Bubba

 

[Hpilot]

For you to apply "career expectations" to wages is flat wrong and won't last a NYC minute with an arbitrator. But, go ahead and argue the "Shuttle America" theory.

Yes, I totally agree an arbitrator isn't going to give a rats cajones about how great the SW pilots think they are. In fact, if they show this level of arrogance, they will probably get a good smack down from the arbitrator.

 

[maru657]

Career expectations??? Southwest expectations were based on a business model that requires constant growth. That model is basically a Ponsi scheme and is obviously broken, ergo 11 year co-pilots who are controlling the dialogue. Southwest was always the darling child of de-regulation which never worked as advertised and required constant love from Sweet Uncle. Now with a broken economy and no where else to grow, them chickens are looking for a place to roost. On one hand you might think chicken soup and lots of fertilizer but it's still just chicken s*#t.

 

[FDJ2]

Have to disagree with you here. The "seat expectations" (i.e. what we actually do and fly to earn a paycheck) may be essentially identical (737 CA), but the "career expectations" (i.e. how well can I provide for my family and retirement, benefits, job security, etc.) are wildly different. There's no one who can debate that in a serious tone. Not even you.

Then bring that argument to the negotiating table and arbitrator if need be. If SWAPA truly felt that was a legitimate point that should dominate the construction of the list, have the courage of your convictions and bring it to arbitration.

 

[FDJ2]

Correction. SWA, not SWAPA has taken a different path. In case you hadn't noticed, GK and management is running this show, not SWAPA. That's also much to the chagrin of a lot of pilots in SWAPA.

Bubba

I believe that SWAPA and the SWA pilots for the most part are supporting managements fear and intimidation tactic. I might be wrong, if I am, show me any resolution from SWAPA committing them to support pay equity for the AAI pilots and full integration after SOC and a single list is determined.

 

[slaquer5]

I believe .

I believe. FDJ2 eats his own poop.

 

[tin]

One more perspective

Not sure if Im posting this link correctly but.........................


http://www.bpfrommer.com/songs/Louis Armstrong - What A Wonderful World.mp3