A Southwest pilot perspective

[SWA Bubba]

Why would Delta guys try to stir up trouble, when YOUR guys were the ones with the lowball offer and constant putdowns on this and other forums to the Airtran people? You treat your new family members really poorly, and most of the posts I have seen on here from OYS and Fubi have been for you guys to tone it down. Your mergers with Muse and Morris were a lot easier back then because the Gov't didn't care as much, until the TWA guys were lambasted by AA. Now it's not as easy to staple, and recent arbitration awards now seem like the norm.

Instead of putdowns and subliminal comparisons to crappy prop companies like Great Lakes, why don't you just accept that Airtran is a miniature version of you, and it won't be merged in at the bottom. You may lose some seniority, and you can thank your CEO for that, not the people who want QOL and better pay, who are just like everyone else. Try not to believe your hype, and especially not the hype of your dumb TV commercials.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Uh, actually essentially NONE of the posts from OYS and Fubi have been of the "tone it down" variety. They're mostly instigating barbs.

And as far as my comparison to "crappy prop companies," it was an illustration as to differences. You keep essentially saying that since we both fly the same types of planes, we must be equal.

Okay. New comparison. First Air Airlines. They're an outfit in Canada. Look it up. They fly 737s, 727s and even 757s. However, they're a small company whose pay and benefits more closely resembles Greyhound Bus Lines than ANY airline. With YOUR logic, you "have to accept that [First Air] is a miniature version of [Airtran]" and shouldn't be merged near the bottom.

Still think aircraft type is the only metric? I suppose if Airtran had bought First Air (instead of GL), then you'd be clamoring for First Air guys to be merged as equals, right? The First Air 4-year Capt on a 737 jet should be right after Airtran's first coupla' guys right? Why hell, I suppose their 757 guys ought to go to the TOP of Airtran's list with your logic. After all, it's a "better" aircraft, promoting superior career expectations. That IS the position you're espousing, right? Or are you going to continue arguing out of both sides of your mouth?

Bubba

 

[Cruncher]

SWA Bubba,

You are absolutely wasting your time.

 

[SWA Bubba]

SWABubba

With all due respect from a fellow SWA pilot, SWA did take gov funds after 911.

Howev we also were the only airline to pay taxes on the money since we were the only ones making a profit.

I stand corrected. As you stated, SWA took gov funds in the form of compensation for lost income due the the government-mandated airspace shutdown. As was offered to every airline.

What I was referring to was loans and grants of the "please help us stay in business" variety, of which SWA asked for none.

And of course, then Fubi proved my last point exactly. Instead of a "tone it down" comment claimed by Gen Lee, or even constructive disagreement (you know, discussing the actual merits of a disagreement), he jumped straight onto the instigating barb. Thanks for proving me correct on THAT issue at least.

Bubba

 

[TillerTurner]

"Those convinced against their will, are of the same opinion still."
SWA Bubba, you are wasting your breath.

 

[ASADFW7]

So one new guy comes on here and gives his opinion and the whole conversation has to start all over again?

 

[General Lee]

Uh, actually essentially NONE of the posts from OYS and Fubi have been of the "tone it down" variety. They're mostly instigating barbs.

And as far as my comparison to "crappy prop companies," it was an illustration as to differences. You keep essentially saying that since we both fly the same types of planes, we must be equal.

Okay. New comparison. First Air Airlines. They're an outfit in Canada. Look it up. They fly 737s, 727s and even 757s. However, they're a small company whose pay and benefits more closely resembles Greyhound Bus Lines than ANY airline. With YOUR logic, you "have to accept that [First Air] is a miniature version of [Airtran]" and shouldn't be merged near the bottom.

Still think aircraft type is the only metric? I suppose if Airtran had bought First Air (instead of GL), then you'd be clamoring for First Air guys to be merged as equals, right? The First Air 4-year Capt on a 737 jet should be right after Airtran's first coupla' guys right? Why hell, I suppose their 757 guys ought to go to the TOP of Airtran's list with your logic. After all, it's a "better" aircraft, promoting superior career expectations. That IS the position you're espousing, right? Or are you going to continue arguing out of both sides of your mouth?

Bubba

First off, I believe First Air in Canada actually has a 767-200F, not a 757. Anyway, I understand where you are going, but you need to follow OYS' advice and look at what arbitrators are ruling. You can state your opinion, but that really doesn't matter compared to the people who actually make those decisions. They are NEUTRALS, who look at the total picutre. If First Air was merging with Air Canada, I really doubt their pilots would be merged into the top of their combined list. But, maybe a few of their guys would. That is what you fail to see, is that arbitrators may throw a few Airtran guys near the top (probably not the top), and then blend them in at some ratio, probably comparable to SWA's size vs Airtran's size. Look at Nicelau's decision at USAir. The top 500 were all USAir East, because they flew A330s and 767s to Europe, and AWA didn't have those types of Operations at the time. The rest of the group was pretty much merged in relative from that point down. AWA was smaller than USAir, but still got that award. I see that SWA is bigger, and has higher profits, but Airtran is NOT in BK, and does have the same type planes (which takes away the USAir --INTL top 500 comparison for you).

Look to the recent past (arbitrated awards), to see what could be in store for any arbitrated list you may have. ALPA knows this, and I think others may be starting to wake up to that fact too. Remember, your airline is bigger, and you could have big ratios between pilots, but there might be a lot more Airtran pilots in higher spots compared to that first offer.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Sacha]

General/OYS,

Are we required to implement the arbitrated list by law, no matter what? Or could we just say that's a nice list, but we are changing the direction of the airline. Is the government this powerful? Have we been declared a Single Carrier? Help me out. You wisdom is starting to scare me. Maybe we should vote in ALPA.....there is such a great legacy in their past........let's start with Midwest and then move on to TWA, Air Wisconsin
Pan Am, Eastern, Braniff, Republic,USAIR........and.....

 

[FDJ2]

Okay. New comparison. First Air Airlines. They're an outfit in Canada. Look it up. They fly 737s, 727s and even 757s. However, they're a small company whose pay and benefits more closely resembles Greyhound Bus Lines than ANY airline. With YOUR logic, you "have to accept that [First Air] is a miniature version of [Airtran]" and shouldn't be merged near the bottom.

Still think aircraft type is the only metric? I suppose if Airtran had bought First Air (instead of GL), then you'd be clamoring for First Air guys to be merged as equals, right? The First Air 4-year Capt on a 737 jet should be right after Airtran's first coupla' guys right? Why hell, I suppose their 757 guys ought to go to the TOP of Airtran's list with your logic. After all, it's a "better" aircraft, promoting superior career expectations. That IS the position you're espousing, right? Or are you going to continue arguing out of both sides of your mouth?

Bubba

Bubba, it doesn't matter what example you use. The point is that the First Air pilots, the AAI pilots, etc. all deserve the same thing, which is a fair process and a fair integration. That process should involve good faith negotiations, free from intimidation and threats. If good faith negotiations don't produce a mutually acceptable list, then a fair arbitration process by an independent neutral (s), should examine all the facts, listen to all the arguments and produce a fair and equitable list. The results of a negotiated list or arbitrated list should be accepted and implemented by all parties.

It's about a process, that is respectful of each pilot, not about using threats and intimidation to coerce an unfair list. A list that is coerced will never be accepted and will ultimately lead to a dysfunctional group.

 

[SWA Bubba]

First off, I believe First Air in Canada actually has a 767-200F, not a 757. Anyway, I understand where you are going, but you need to follow OYS' advice and look at what arbitrators are ruling. You can state your opinion, but that really doesn't matter compared to the people who actually make those decisions. They are NEUTRALS, who look at the total picutre. If First Air was merging with Air Canada, I really doubt their pilots would be merged into the top of their combined list. But, maybe a few of their guys would. That is what you fail to see, is that arbitrators may throw a few Airtran guys near the top (probably not the top), and then blend them in at some ratio, probably comparable to SWA's size vs Airtran's size. Look at Nicelau's decision at USAir. The top 500 were all USAir East, because they flew A330s and 767s to Europe, and AWA didn't have those types of Operations at the time. The rest of the group was pretty much merged in relative from that point down. AWA was smaller than USAir, but still got that award. I see that SWA is bigger, and has higher profits, but Airtran is NOT in BK, and does have the same type planes (which takes away the USAir --INTL top 500 comparison for you).

Look to the recent past (arbitrated awards), to see what could be in store for any arbitrated list you may have. ALPA knows this, and I think others may be starting to wake up to that fact too. Remember, your airline is bigger, and you could have big ratios between pilots, but there might be a lot more Airtran pilots in higher spots compared to that first offer.


Bye Bye---General Lee

You're right: 767 not 757. Guess I should have put on my reading glasses when I was reading about First Air on the internet. In fact, I had never even heard of First Air until I heard about their recent crash. However having 767 pilots (vice 757) could lead to even higher "career expectations" for First Air pilots in my hypothetical. My point was the ATN argument on this forum is essentially that ATN & SWA are exactly equal because they fly the same type of metal. Also, ATN is "better" then GL, because they're a "crappy little prop company." I wonder if the people spouting that view would hold the same view compared to First Air. What say you, ATN? Are you exactly equal to First Air because they also fly jets?

As far as the AW/US arbitration, as you said, ignoring the heavy, trans-Atlantic metric at the top, essentially it was a relative seniority SLI. What you didn't mention, however, was that that was nearly exactly what the AW side proposed. The US side wanted DOH, because that would favor them immensely. Did you know that their opening position was to have their furloughed guys come back and displace active AW pilots onto the street? When they didn't get it, all sorts of hijinks occurred, and the fighting continues after five years.

You also mentioned that arbitrators are neutral who "look at the total picture." On this I agree. Others (Fubi, etc.) claim that the only thing an arbitrator would look at is the size of metal. Really? That's the "total picture"?

I personally don't fear arbitration, because I believe that an arbitrator will look at the total picture. You know, compensation, benefits, company's quality and health, quality of life, etc. How about job security? Won't a neutral notice 'never furloughed' vs 'about to strike (and possibly burn the place down)'? Like I said, -I- think a true neutral would favor us in arbitration. However it is the unknown, and nobody (least of all, GK) likes the unknown.

Bubba

 

[tankerhead]

Bubba, you're really rehashing what's already been futilely hashed, rehashed, smothered and covered.

Riddle me this, though. WHAT WAS THE FREAKING POINT OF THE PROCESS AGREEMENT!?!! Why did y'all bother to agree to it, if Gary and SWAPA knew all along that they were gonna wipe their collective asses with it.

Plain English or a fancy, contrived example will be fine. I really want to hear why you think it's OK to sign the thing, and then threaten to ignore it with extreme prejudice.