A Southwest pilot perspective

[SWA Bubba]

New to this forum, first time poster. However, Reading PPRuNe and SWAPA forums containing copied Airtran postings from this and other boards has given me a taste of some of Airtran's more vocal opinionists. (although, to be fair, both airlines have their share of forum blowhards lobbing grenades at each other). I'd like to offer the perspective of the average SW pilot in response to Airtran claims of injustice, inequity, and the general idea that SWA and SWAPA are out to screw them and steal their seniority.

Here's an analogy: Suppose Sept 2010's announcement was different. Instead of hearing that Fornaro sold ATN to SWA, instead he announced that ATN had bought Great Lakes Airlines. SWA was nowhere in the mix. Further, he was commited to keeping all the employees and providing "fair and equitable" integration.

So here comes Great Lakes' NC, and they say that all they want is fair. So far, so good, right? However, a two-year GL Capt there expects to still be a Capt at the new, integrated ATN with your contract (much better than his), and and of course, double his money. Then a four-year GL Capt mentions that since he's at 10% of his seniority list, he expects to still be at 10%. After all, he holds weekends off, and expects to keep doing so. It's only fair, he says. And so on. How do you think the average AirTran pilot would react? Do you see where I'm going here?

Before you lynch me, I'm not actually equating Airtran to Great Lakes. In fact, I used this widely disparate example just to illustrate my point. And while the difference between SWA and ATN is certainly not as big as the difference between ATN and GL, there IS a big difference. It is NOT a merger of equals. Despite what ALPA national may be telling you, everyone knows this fact. They just don't want to admit it.

Anyway, for you guys who just can't believe that SWAPA would be so heartless and openly attempt to "steal" your seniority, I just want you to understand where WE are coming from. You have your perspective, and we have ours. And after all, the word "fair" is in the eye of the beholder.

I'll post some more "average" SW guy perspective later.

Bubba

 

[redflyer65]

INCOMING!






but still a great post, puts things in prospective.

 

[maru657]

Before you lynch me, I'm not actually equating Airtran to Great Lakes. In fact, I used this widely disparate example just to illustrate my point. And while the difference between SWA and ATN is certainly not as big as the difference between ATN and GL, there IS a big difference. It is NOT a merger of equals. Despite what ALPA national may be telling you, everyone knows this fact. They just don't want to admit it.


Yep, not a merger of equals, ATN has not grasped that special landing technique that southwest seems to have perfected. ATN pilots are still too busy practicing CATIII landings and international operations.

 

[maru657]

Before you lynch me, I'm not actually equating Airtran to Great Lakes. In fact, I used this widely disparate example just to illustrate my point. And while the difference between SWA and ATN is certainly not as big as the difference between ATN and GL, there IS a big difference. It is NOT a merger of equals. Despite what ALPA national may be telling you, everyone knows this fact. They just don't want to admit it.


Yep, not a merger of equals, ATN has not grasped that special landing technique that southwest seems to have perfected. ATN pilots are still too busy practicing CATIII landings and international operations.

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

Before you lynch me, I'm not actually equating Airtran to Great Lakes. In fact, I used this widely disparate example just to illustrate my point. And while the difference between SWA and ATN is certainly not as big as the difference between ATN and GL, there IS a big difference. It is NOT a merger of equals. Despite what ALPA national may be telling you, everyone knows this fact. They just don't want to admit it.


Yep, not a merger of equals, ATN has not grasped that special landing technique that southwest seems to have perfected. ATN pilots are still too busy practicing CATIII landings and international operations.

My Heroes! BFD!
KBB

 

[Hamburger]

And Serving Business Class customers.

 

[redflyer65]

Yep, not a merger of equals, ATN has not grasped that special landing technique that southwest seems to have perfected. ATN pilots are still too busy practicing CATIII landings and international operations.

Maru,

Not equal on ANY metric. Prove me wrong.

RF

 

[On Your Six]

New to this forum, first time poster. However, Reading PPRuNe and SWAPA forums containing copied Airtran postings from this and other boards has given me a taste of some of Airtran's more vocal opinionists. (although, to be fair, both airlines have their share of forum blowhards lobbing grenades at each other). I'd like to offer the perspective of the average SW pilot in response to Airtran claims of injustice, inequity, and the general idea that SWA and SWAPA are out to screw them and steal their seniority.

Here's an analogy: Suppose Sept 2010's announcement was different. Instead of hearing that Fornaro sold ATN to SWA, instead he announced that ATN had bought Great Lakes Airlines. SWA was nowhere in the mix. Further, he was commited to keeping all the employees and providing "fair and equitable"integration.

So here comes Great Lakes' NC, and they say that all they want is fair. So far, so good, right? However, a two-year GL Capt there expects to still be a Capt at the new, integrated ATN with your contract (much better than his), and and of course, double his money. Then a four-year GL Capt mentions that since he's at 10% of his seniority list, he expects to still be at 10%. After all, he holds weekends off, and expects to keep doing so. It's only fair, he says. And so on. How do you think the average AirTran pilot would react? Do you see where I'm going here?

Before you lynch me, I'm not actually equating Airtran to Great Lakes. In fact, I used this widely disparate example just to illustrate my point. And while the difference between SWA and ATN is certainly not as big as the difference between ATN and GL, there IS a big difference. It is NOT a merger of equals.



Despite what ALPA national may be telling you, everyone knows this fact. They just don't want to admit it.

Anyway, for you guys who just can't believe that SWAPA would be so heartless and openly attempt to "steal" your seniority, I just want you to understand where WE are coming from. You have your perspective, and we have ours. And after all, the word "fair" is in the eye of the beholder.

I'll post some more "average" SW guy perspective later.

Bubba

Of course, AT isn't Great Lakes, even though you mentioned it wasn't about comparing them (great try at making everyone feel like you were, though). It's not as big as SWA, but it too is a successful LCC with the same type planes or sizes you have, and can actually fly international routes, which your group hasn't been trusted with. Since you are so sure of your position, I think your team is ready to give a great opening statement to the arbitrators if it gets that far, and see what happens. It's very likely you will be surprised with the end results, and it will be binding.


Godspeed!


OYS

 

[wood pecker]

I'm over it and realize alpa could promise us iron clad language that a rock will sink, bet your job on it.

Then after you bet your job no one realized that alpa did not bother to check how deep the water is, how big the rock is, nor what sink means, is it submerged all the way.

As far as GL, we were pretty certain of a Midwest deal and the feeling was treat them as we would want to be treated from what I recall.

Unemployment sucks and I now tip my hat to the better gamesman, SW management.

I need some Luv and a pay raise please. Oh, that's right the 717 is not included.
My axe is buried w my alpa pin and Luv lanyard.

 

[CaptWidgeon]

Yep, not a merger of equals, ATN has not grasped that special landing technique that southwest seems to have perfected. ATN pilots are still too busy practicing CATIII landings and international operations.

is this what you believe makes us 'equals'? it's not a question of who's johnson is bigger, it's who's mgmt has made the best decisions and who's employees have contributed to the implementing the plan. ya' gotta have labor and mgmt working together to make it work. swa has that. aa, delta, continental fly to more places than airtran, does that make them better? no. we can all go to school and learn how to find london or hong kong.

why did airtran bring alpa ON prob and have such a high percentage strike vote? your mgmt sucked. mgmt/labor relations sucked. and that sucks for you/us line pukes who just want to make a living. it's not my fault and it's not yours but it's life. swa is buying aai for a reason, mgmt has a plan, and i/we are along for the ride.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Uh, On everyone's six, I think you and others missed my point. I'm not saying the pilots are not as good as our pilots, I'm saying the airline isn't the equal. I think most of those guys (esp Maru) knew what I meant, but jumped on the point HE wanted to argue instead. In fact, he was so adamant to change my meaning, that he said it twice.

I'm not talking types of planes either, or international flying. I'm talking the COMPANY. You allowed that SWA is bigger, but you believe (or at least wrote) that that's the only thing SWA has over ATN, while you're better in that you fly international. Really? THAT's your argument? Hell, Volaris does international flying, and those guys get paid what GL gets paid. It's all about the quality, viablilty, and economics of the company. Please tell me you're not really suggesting that quality and viability and economics are equal.

Some examples:
SW: never furloughed; never failed to turn an annual profit since 1974; industry-leading contract (wages, benefits, working conditions, etc). The envy (as a job, I mean) of the entire airline world since 9/11, and has exponentially more people applying to work here than anyone else (incl current Airtran pilots).
ATN: Insufficient contract with MUCH lower wages and benefits (pre-constructive notice), so much so that you voted to strike at 96-98%. Already walking picket lines and bitching about management.

Anyway, the point I was making was that you seem to think that SWA pilots should have the same perspective as you (which apparently the only "right" perspective), and therefore, not giving you DOH or relative is being unfair. I'm not attacking you; I'm telling you that we see it differently. Why is that so hard to understand?

In your last post you seem to imply that our companies are exactly equal, and pilots should be able to walk back and forth in equal seniority. Is that what you're saying, or am I missing something?

Bubba

 

[737 Driver]

SWA Bubba, be very careful. oy will start sending you nude photos of him/herself. I puked when I saw 'it'.
He/she is very strange.

 

[OMNIDC10FO]

I think your team is ready to give a great opening statement to the arbitrators if it gets that far, and see what happens. It's very likely you will be surprised with the end results, and it will be binding.


Godspeed!


OYS

So what your saying is that Airtran will fare better if they go to arbitration? Interesting.

 

[Dash Power]

New to this forum, first time poster. However, Reading PPRuNe and SWAPA forums containing copied Airtran postings from this and other boards has given me a taste of some of Airtran's more vocal opinionists. (although, to be fair, both airlines have their share of forum blowhards lobbing grenades at each other). I'd like to offer the perspective of the average SW pilot in response to Airtran claims of injustice, inequity, and the general idea that SWA and SWAPA are out to screw them and steal their seniority.

Here's an analogy: Suppose Sept 2010's announcement was different. Instead of hearing that Fornaro sold ATN to SWA, instead he announced that ATN had bought Great Lakes Airlines. SWA was nowhere in the mix. Further, he was commited to keeping all the employees and providing "fair and equitable" integration.

So here comes Great Lakes' NC, and they say that all they want is fair. So far, so good, right? However, a two-year GL Capt there expects to still be a Capt at the new, integrated ATN with your contract (much better than his), and and of course, double his money. Then a four-year GL Capt mentions that since he's at 10% of his seniority list, he expects to still be at 10%. After all, he holds weekends off, and expects to keep doing so. It's only fair, he says. And so on. How do you think the average AirTran pilot would react? Do you see where I'm going here?

Before you lynch me, I'm not actually equating Airtran to Great Lakes. In fact, I used this widely disparate example just to illustrate my point. And while the difference between SWA and ATN is certainly not as big as the difference between ATN and GL, there IS a big difference. It is NOT a merger of equals. Despite what ALPA national may be telling you, everyone knows this fact. They just don't want to admit it.

Anyway, for you guys who just can't believe that SWAPA would be so heartless and openly attempt to "steal" your seniority, I just want you to understand where WE are coming from. You have your perspective, and we have ours. And after all, the word "fair" is in the eye of the beholder.

I'll post some more "average" SW guy perspective later.

Bubba

How about instead of an airline named Great Lakes, it is a Five year old airline flying 717's named Northeast. Their average hiring requirements were 1000 total with 100 multi. Their Captains earn 85,000 and their FO's 60,000. And all their contract details were equally as different as between SWA and Airtran. Financially the company has had their problems in years one or two, but now they hold their own but the future is not as certain as Airtrans.

Relative seniority or DOH sound fair with their "entitled" 70% gain in pay and benefits?

It is a good example of differences of opinion.

 

[On Your Six]

So what your saying is that Airtran will fare better if they go to arbitration? Interesting.

On a binding SLI? Yes, if it happens.


Godspeed!


OYS

 

[SWA Bubba]

Another example for On My Six:

Suppose I walked into ATN one day in Aug 2010 (you know,... before...) with a wagon-load of SWA badges, and said that anyone who wanted to come with me would be guaranteed a spot in the next new-hire class. Type ratings and our minimums not required. I'll bet I could have taken 90% of your F/Os and not just a few of your Capts. Before you get all huffy and claim that that's not true, our People department has literally hundreds of applications from active Airtran pilots which says it is true. Some of those aps are from active Airtran capts, I might add. And we both know that there would be a lot more Airtran pilot aps with SWA, if not the fact that a bunch of your F/Os don't meet our mins yet and couldn't have applied.

How 'bout this: If I made that offer and said that in addition, everyone would be pay-protected, I'll bet I'd get ALL the F/Os and a heck of a lot of your Capts as well. We both know it's true. ATN pilots would drop the ALPA-on-strike signs they were working on, and rush in a caravan to Dallas as fast as they could.

But now that the acquisition deal went through, things seem to have changed somewhat. Since ALPA national has assured you that our contract and money are your God-given right, and that we have to take you; now you're singing a different tune. Suddenly, we're equals in every way. Suddenly, Airtran was just as great of an employment opportunity as Southwest.

Anyway, like I said, this is the perspective of the average SWA pilot. We're all thinking, "how can they actually say that with a straight face?" I'm telling you this for your information. Not because we believe we're superior people, but rather that SWA is a superior company compared to Airtran. I'm not trying to be personal, or run down Airtran's worth, I'm simply illustrating my point that we are not equals in terms of companies.

Bubba

 

[maru657]

SW: never furloughed; never failed to turn an annual profit since 1974; industry-leading contract (wages, benefits, working conditions, etc). The envy (as a job, I mean) of the entire airline world since 9/11, and has exponentially more people applying to work here than anyone else (incl current Airtran pilots).
The key phrase is annual profit. Just barely. Since 9/11? That ain't that long ago. Shortly prior to 9/11, people were leaving southwest to go to united. The last wonderkind.

 

[e120pilot]

SWA Bubba,

The point of negotiations is that each side starts with a wish list and eventually compromises to the point where everyone can live with the result. The process agreement which was signed by both sides has a clear path for the seniority list to be resolved either through a negotiated list or if need be an arbitrated list. If you feel so strongly that anyone should understand how superior SWA is to AT, then why are you guys so worried about this going to arbitration? Doesn't seem the "golden rule" is being applied to the pilots of AirTran when the rules of the game are changed in the 2nd quarter. SWA/SWAPA has now decided that they will take their ball and go home if they don't win.

 

[Bake]

Well, it aint pre 9/11/2001. it is now. In 1965 no one wanted to come to SWA. In fact even in 1970 no one wanted to come to SWA. Let's talk here and now. Not everyone wants to come to SWA but alot do. Those are the facts. Whatta, iffa, shoulda, coulda.

 

[SWA/FO]

Yep, not a merger of equals, ATN has not grasped that special landing technique that southwest seems to have perfected. ATN pilots are still too busy practicing CATIII landings and international operations.

Whoa maybe you can show us how to shoot a CAT III.

 

[SWA Bubba]

More for On Your Six (by God, I'm gonna' get him to see our point of view if it kills me!):

Looking at it another way, those applications mean that nearly 500 of your pilots (incl the 60 or 70 who already have quit ATN for SWA) have already indicated their opinion, in writing, that being stapled to the bottom of our list, sitting a year of probation, and buying their own type rating, was superior to what they had at Airtran. What does that tell you? What do you think it tells the rest of the airline world?

There was even several active Airtran pilots in our hiring pool for the 2 years or so we didn't have new-hire classes. They were already hired but waiting. Had SWA not bought ATN, they would have jumped at the chance to start at the bottom like every SWA pilot before them. However, since SWA did buy ATN, when we called for class up, all but one turned it down. They had previously believed it was an opportunity of a lifetime, but now they declined, thinking ALPA could get them more with their hardcore tactics. That sounds less like "fair," and more like "opportunism" to me.

Southwest pilot perspective. Just so you don't wonder why the average SW pilot thinks ALPA MEC turning down the AIP smacked of greed.

Bubba

 

[Bake]

Doesn't seem the "golden rule" is being applied to the pilots of AirTran when the rules of the game are changed in the 2nd quarter. SWA/SWAPA has now decided that they will take their ball and go home if they don't win.

The golden rule is being applied as it is applied to our customers and other employees. To our competion, we will be there when you are in need. When AMR went off the RWY in LIT, SWA flew 2 planes there in support of AMR. During the hurricane of 2005 (???) in HOU. I flew a plane to help out the people of that area at the full expense of SWA. We live the golden rule everyday. When it comes to competition and business, we are all business. In fact, you could say that you are not living by the golden rule by being greedy. Godsmack, Greed is a great song if you are in doubt.

 

[Wolf King]

SWA Bubba, be very careful. oy will start sending you nude photos of him/herself. I puked when I saw 'it'.
He/she is very strange.

Funny, I got one too. He was wrestling a naked midget, not sure which one was the midget....

 

[redflyer65]

But now that the acquisition deal went through, things seem to have changed somewhat. Since ALPA national has assured you that our contract and money are your God-given right
Bubba

Unbelievably accurate Bubba. OYS will never admit defeat though. Heck, he/she doesn't even know the DL seniority list..

RF

 

[redflyer65]

The key phrase is annual profit. Just barely. Since 9/11? That ain't that long ago. Shortly prior to 9/11, people were leaving southwest to go to united. The last wonderkind.

Really? Name another airline that's done better.

 

[SWA Bubba]

e120 pilot,

First, thanks for being civil. I'm not so much trying to push the opinion that SWA is superior, but rather get some of your most vocal posters to see OUR perspective. Their posts seem to think we're stealing from ATN since we don't agree with them (about equality, that is).

And I agree 100% with you about negotiations. This is where -I- feel ALPA was not acting in good faith. Let's talk about the negotiations: SWAPA shows up to the table with the industry-leading contract (in all respects; not just far superior compensation). ALPA shows up to the table with superior seniority (due to a lot of things: younger company, some turnover, etc.) Do you agree with that so far?

Anyway, SWAPA says let's negotiate. We'll trade some of ours for some of yours. Seems fair to me. We've got the money; you've got the seniority. Wait a minute, ALPA says. That's the company's money, not yours. We're entitled to it anyway. But these are our seats, and our seniority, and we want to keep it.

Do you see where I'm going? Either it's SWAPA's contract/money that we earned through years of hard work and negotiation, AND it's ALPA's seniority and seats, and let's make a trade; OR it all belongs to the company, and all us pilots are sitting around with our thumbs up our behinds. Pick one. ALPA can't say, "it's the company's money so you can't trade it, but it's our personal seats and seniority, so we don't have to trade it."

However, that's exactly what ALPA seems to be saying. I realize that's an ALPA national thing, and not necessarily what an average Airtran line pilot may believe. And please see my last post about a significant portion of your pilot group previously asking to be stapled to our list (by applying, that is); but now the same group seems to be demanding equality and their original seniority simply because ALPA says they can. That has nothing to do with "fair." Or negotiating, for that matter.

Thanks for listening and being civil. I really hope you understand that I'm just trying to explain what the view is from our side of the fence.

Bubba

 

[FDJ2]

I would expect that any pilot group in a merger scenario would be treated with respect, not threats and coercion and that a fair process would be followed. If good faith negotiations fail and if SWAPA is confident in their position, present it to an arbitrator. SWAPA should make their best case before the arbitrator and at the end of the day accept the award, integrate the AAI pilots and move on as one pilot group.

Unfortunately, due to fear and hubris, SWAPA has taken a different path, one which will ultimately lead to dysfunction.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Unfortunately, due to fear and hubris, SWAPA has taken a different path, one which will ultimately lead to dysfunction.

Correct. The GLUX example is erroneous. You can't compare a 1900 operator to a 737 operator. The "career expectations" of SWA and AAI pilots are essentially identical...737 CA.

Therefore, the seniority earned at each carrier is also essentially identical.

This SLI merger screams for DoH.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Correct. The GLUX example is erroneous. You can't compare a 1900 operator to a 737 operator. The "career expectations" of SWA and AAI pilots are essentially identical...737 CA.

Therefore, the seniority earned at each carrier is also essentially identical.

This SLI merger screams for DoH.

Have to disagree with you here. The "seat expectations" (i.e. what we actually do and fly to earn a paycheck) may be essentially identical (737 CA), but the "career expectations" (i.e. how well can I provide for my family and retirement, benefits, job security, etc.) are wildly different. There's no one who can debate that in a serious tone. Not even you.

Otherwise how do you explain the massive number of Airtran pilots who wanted to quit and start over at SWA?

And I wasn't really comparing 1900s to 737s. I was illustrating differences. What if GL bought some 737s? THEN, can their four-year CA integrate into your list and contract at his 10% seniority?

What you're doing is changing MY argument to suit what YOU want the facts to be.

Bubba

 

[waveflyer]

Fubi- is it safe to assume that you troll these boards bc you're an older Alaska pilot and if Wn buys you, DOH would be in your best interests?

I'd contend that most WNers joined SWA for more reasons that to be just a "737 capt"- most of us are privileged to be part of the company and culture- but also hitch are wagons to the business model. The business model allows sustainable high pay, not the fact that we use 737s.

So I'd rephrase your career expectation- AT (and you) have the career expectation to be hub and spoke 737 capts in volatile, adversarial environments. And WN has the career expectation of being hybrid point to point 737 capts in a stable, synergistic, mutually productive environment.

IMHO- there's a difference.

But then again- I'm not as socialistic as the average airline pilot. (though I am liberal) And I gave up my number at the legacy where I had 777 career expectations.

And for those calling out Herb and GARY'S honor-- that's ridiculous and you know it- you're just not seeing how ALPA going for every inch they can through their legal rights would ripple through all work groups and multiply. You can't furlough in 2009, and then call out the people who did not despite many of the same challenges. That's just not right. If Herb and GK take a firmer stance with you, that's a pretty good sign that your side is the one messing up. JMO