A Southwest pilot perspective

[SWA Bubba]

Unfortunately, due to fear and hubris, SWAPA has taken a different path, one which will ultimately lead to dysfunction.

Correction. SWA, not SWAPA has taken a different path. In case you hadn't noticed, GK and management is running this show, not SWAPA. That's also much to the chagrin of a lot of pilots in SWAPA.

Bubba

 

[Fubijaakr]

Correction. SWA, not SWAPA has taken a different path. In case you hadn't noticed, GK and management is running this show, not SWAPA. That's also much to the chagrin of a lot of pilots in SWAPA.

That is a true statement. And I don't believe the posters here have a clue what the God King is thinking.

And I wasn't really comparing 1900s to 737s. I was illustrating differences. What if GL bought some 737s? THEN, can their four-year CA integrate into your list and contract at his 10% seniority?

Reminds me of the saying: "If 'Ifs and Buts' were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas."

Your premise is faulty on the face of it. GLUX doesn't fly 737s. Period. So to address your facetious premise would be just as faulty.

In fact, AAI and SWA pilots have the same "career expectations." Career expectations historically differentiated between widebody and narrowbody CA seats. Ask a Republic pilot how that works.

For you to apply "career expectations" to wages is flat wrong and won't last a NYC minute with an arbitrator. But, go ahead and argue the "Shuttle America" theory.

Then belly up to the bar for a BIG helping of crow.

I can't wait to laugh in your faces when this is all over. You'll be ashamed to wear those ridiculous flag ties in public.

 

[On Your Six]

Another example for On My Six:

Suppose I walked into ATN one day in Aug 2010 (you know,... before...) with a wagon-load of SWA badges, and said that anyone who wanted to come with me would be guaranteed a spot in the next new-hire class. Type ratings and our minimums not required. I'll bet I could have taken 90% of your F/Os and not just a few of your Capts. Before you get all huffy and claim that that's not true, our People department has literally hundreds of applications from active Airtran pilots which says it is true. Some of those aps are from active Airtran capts, I might add. And we both know that there would be a lot more Airtran pilot aps with SWA, if not the fact that a bunch of your F/Os don't meet our mins yet and couldn't have applied.

How 'bout this: If I made that offer and said that in addition, everyone would be pay-protected, I'll bet I'd get ALL the F/Os and a heck of a lot of your Capt as well. We both know it's true. ATN pilots would drop the ALPA-on-strike signs they were working on, and rush in a caravan to Dallas as fast as they could.

But now that the acquisition deal went through, things seem to have changed somewhat. Since ALPA national has assured you that our contract and money are your God-given right, and that we have to take you; now you're singing a different tune. Suddenly, we're equals in every way. Suddenly, Airtran was just as great of an employment opportunity as Southwest.

Anyway, like I said, this is the perspective of the average SWA pilot. We're all thinking, "how can they actually say that with a straight face?" I'm telling you this for your information. Not because we believe we're superior people, but rather that SWA is a superior company compared to Airtran. I'm not trying to be personal, or run down Airtran's worth, I'm simply illustrating my
point that we are not equals in terms of companies.

Bubba

Bubba,

I understand your point, I really do. UAL was a lot like this in the early 90s, full of company pride that bordered on cockiness. It's one thing to believe inthis yourself, and another to try to convince others of the same. Some companies do pay better and have better benefits, and probably do have stacks of resumes waiting for a chance. That's great and all, but a lot of that doesn't matter in arbitration. Pay and benefits don't really matter. In fact, in the last successful mainline merger with a SLI, the payrates and benefits were blended between the two groups BEFORE the arbitration happened. The SLI came down to what each brought to the table, plane wise, hub wise, size wise. If you are bigger, you would probably have a better ratio. If you are an older airline, you might get more of the top spots. I missed my current airline's arbitration, but I watched it and have talked to many who had gone through it. You just have to ride the roller coaster and try not to alienate your future brothers over there, because some may turn out to be your captain someday.


Godspeed!


OYS

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba,

I understand your point, I really do. UAL was a lot like this in the early 90s, full of company pride that bordered on cockiness. It's one thing to believe inthis yourself, and another to try to convince others of the same. Some companies do pay better and have better benefits, and probably do have stacks of resumes waiting for a chance. That's great and all, but a lot of that doesn't matter in arbitration. Pay and benefits don't really matter. In fact, in the last successful mainline merger with a SLI, the payrates and benefits were blended between the two groups BEFORE the arbitration happened. The SLI came down to what each brought to the table, plane wise, hub wise, size wise. If you are bigger, you would probably have a better ratio. If you are an older airline, you might get more of the top spots. I missed my current airline's arbitration, but I watched it and have talked to many who had gone through it. You just have to ride the roller coaster and try not to alienate your future brothers over there, because some may turn out to be your captain someday.


Godspeed!


OYS

Unlike many others on this forum, I'm trying not to alienate ANYBODY. I started off simply trying to demonstrate SWA pilots' point of view. Everyone from ATN on this forum seems to think that SWA pilots are arrogant, "seniority-stealing" pricks because we don't agree with them. That's just not the case. And, of course, for my trouble, I've been labeled an arrogant prick just for daring to civily point out that I didn't agree with them. You did a little of that yourself, don't you think?

As far as SLIs go, everyone is different, and I suspect this one will be vastly different then any other. Yes, I'm proud of the company I work for, but I really believe SWA is different in this regard. ALPA seems to assume arbitration is the be-all/end-all, and plans for that from the outset. Personally, I don't think Gary would let it go to arbitration or allow an arbitrated list to be integrated. <NOTE TO EVERYONE: don't flame me! I'm not threatening anyone; that's just my personal opinion, and I could be wrong!> Remember, this is NOT an ALPA airline. ALPA rules and precedence don't really apply here.

And to you personally, I assumed you were an ATN pilot from the way you posted. Other posters on this thread even indicated you were. I guess you can color me confused. If you're not, then I suppose I shouldn't have directed my "education campaign" in your direction.

Bubba

 

[Hpilot]

For you to apply "career expectations" to wages is flat wrong and won't last a NYC minute with an arbitrator. But, go ahead and argue the "Shuttle America" theory.

Yes, I totally agree an arbitrator isn't going to give a rats cajones about how great the SW pilots think they are. In fact, if they show this level of arrogance, they will probably get a good smack down from the arbitrator.

 

[maru657]

Career expectations??? Southwest expectations were based on a business model that requires constant growth. That model is basically a Ponsi scheme and is obviously broken, ergo 11 year co-pilots who are controlling the dialogue. Southwest was always the darling child of de-regulation which never worked as advertised and required constant love from Sweet Uncle. Now with a broken economy and no where else to grow, them chickens are looking for a place to roost. On one hand you might think chicken soup and lots of fertilizer but it's still just chicken s*#t.

 

[FDJ2]

Have to disagree with you here. The "seat expectations" (i.e. what we actually do and fly to earn a paycheck) may be essentially identical (737 CA), but the "career expectations" (i.e. how well can I provide for my family and retirement, benefits, job security, etc.) are wildly different. There's no one who can debate that in a serious tone. Not even you.

Then bring that argument to the negotiating table and arbitrator if need be. If SWAPA truly felt that was a legitimate point that should dominate the construction of the list, have the courage of your convictions and bring it to arbitration.

 

[FDJ2]

Correction. SWA, not SWAPA has taken a different path. In case you hadn't noticed, GK and management is running this show, not SWAPA. That's also much to the chagrin of a lot of pilots in SWAPA.

Bubba

I believe that SWAPA and the SWA pilots for the most part are supporting managements fear and intimidation tactic. I might be wrong, if I am, show me any resolution from SWAPA committing them to support pay equity for the AAI pilots and full integration after SOC and a single list is determined.

 

[slaquer5]

I believe .

I believe. FDJ2 eats his own poop.

 

[tin]

One more perspective

Not sure if Im posting this link correctly but.........................


http://www.bpfrommer.com/songs/Louis Armstrong - What A Wonderful World.mp3