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Yes, I totally agree an arbitrator isn't going to give a rats cajones about how great the SW pilots think they are. In fact, if they show this level of arrogance, they will probably get a good smack down from the arbitrator.
Career expectations??? Southwest expectations were based on a business model that requires constant growth. That model is basically a Ponsi scheme and is obviously broken, ergo 11 year co-pilots who are controlling the dialogue. Southwest was always the darling child of de-regulation which never worked as advertised and required constant love from Sweet Uncle. Now with a broken economy and no where else to grow, them chickens are looking for a place to roost. On one hand you might think chicken soup and lots of fertilizer but it's still just chicken s*#t.
Then bring that argument to the negotiating table and arbitrator if need be. If SWAPA truly felt that was a legitimate point that should dominate the construction of the list, have the courage of your convictions and bring it to arbitration.
Bubba,
You seem like a good dude and most of us at ATN get it and understand the culture. Take the crap you read here with a grain of salt. It represents less than 5% of us Trannies.
Yes and there alot of rank and file who have finally had a wake up call and realized they were not given all of the facts.
Yes and there alot of rank and file who have finally had a wake up call and realized they were not given all of the facts.
Career expectations??? Southwest expectations were based on a business model that requires constant growth. That model is basically a Ponsi scheme and is obviously broken, ergo 11 year co-pilots who are controlling the dialogue. Southwest was always the darling child of de-regulation which never worked as advertised and required constant love from Sweet Uncle. Now with a broken economy and no where else to grow, them chickens are looking for a place to roost. On one hand you might think chicken soup and lots of fertilizer but it's still just chicken s*#t.
Career expectations??? Southwest expectations were based on a business model that requires constant growth. That model is basically a Ponsi scheme and is obviously broken, ergo 11 year co-pilots who are controlling the dialogue. Southwest was always the darling child of de-regulation which never worked as advertised and required constant love from Sweet Uncle. Now with a broken economy and no where else to grow, them chickens are looking for a place to roost. On one hand you might think chicken soup and lots of fertilizer but it's still just chicken s*#t.
Maru, I can't tell if you and your friends hpilot, fdj2, and fubijaakr (and on your six, for that matter) are actually ATN guys trying to advocate a position, or simply pot-stirrers. I'm leaning towards the latter: since a lot of your posts are ad-hominem and straw man attacks, and basically consist of shouting the same things over and over and generally congratulating each other for agreeing with you all (as if that means anything).
My guess is Delta guys trying to stir up trouble, 'cause you're a little worried about what will happen when a larger SWA starts competing with you in Atlanta.
Well, what say you guys? You don't have to give your names, but how about identifying your airline so everyone knows your actual agenda? Or you could just go back to your baiting exercise. Don't forget to keep quoting each other just as if any of you are know the first thing about this situation, and are authorities in anything other than troublemaking.
Bubba
With all due respect from a fellow SWA pilot, SWA did take gov funds after 911.
Howev we also were the only airline to pay taxes on the money since we were the only ones making a profit.
Why would Delta guys try to stir up trouble, when YOUR guys were the ones with the lowball offer and constant putdowns on this and other forums to the Airtran people? You treat your new family members really poorly, and most of the posts I have seen on here from OYS and Fubi have been for you guys to tone it down. Your mergers with Muse and Morris were a lot easier back then because the Gov't didn't care as much, until the TWA guys were lambasted by AA. Now it's not as easy to staple, and recent arbitration awards now seem like the norm.
Instead of putdowns and subliminal comparisons to crappy prop companies like Great Lakes, why don't you just accept that Airtran is a miniature version of you, and it won't be merged in at the bottom. You may lose some seniority, and you can thank your CEO for that, not the people who want QOL and better pay, who are just like everyone else. Try not to believe your hype, and especially not the hype of your dumb TV commercials.
Bye Bye---General Lee
SWABubba
With all due respect from a fellow SWA pilot, SWA did take gov funds after 911.
Howev we also were the only airline to pay taxes on the money since we were the only ones making a profit.
Uh, actually essentially NONE of the posts from OYS and Fubi have been of the "tone it down" variety. They're mostly instigating barbs.
And as far as my comparison to "crappy prop companies," it was an illustration as to differences. You keep essentially saying that since we both fly the same types of planes, we must be equal.
Okay. New comparison. First Air Airlines. They're an outfit in Canada. Look it up. They fly 737s, 727s and even 757s. However, they're a small company whose pay and benefits more closely resembles Greyhound Bus Lines than ANY airline. With YOUR logic, you "have to accept that [First Air] is a miniature version of [Airtran]" and shouldn't be merged near the bottom.
Still think aircraft type is the only metric? I suppose if Airtran had bought First Air (instead of GL), then you'd be clamoring for First Air guys to be merged as equals, right? The First Air 4-year Capt on a 737 jet should be right after Airtran's first coupla' guys right? Why hell, I suppose their 757 guys ought to go to the TOP of Airtran's list with your logic. After all, it's a "better" aircraft, promoting superior career expectations. That IS the position you're espousing, right? Or are you going to continue arguing out of both sides of your mouth?
Bubba
Okay. New comparison. First Air Airlines. They're an outfit in Canada. Look it up. They fly 737s, 727s and even 757s. However, they're a small company whose pay and benefits more closely resembles Greyhound Bus Lines than ANY airline. With YOUR logic, you "have to accept that [First Air] is a miniature version of [Airtran]" and shouldn't be merged near the bottom.
Still think aircraft type is the only metric? I suppose if Airtran had bought First Air (instead of GL), then you'd be clamoring for First Air guys to be merged as equals, right? The First Air 4-year Capt on a 737 jet should be right after Airtran's first coupla' guys right? Why hell, I suppose their 757 guys ought to go to the TOP of Airtran's list with your logic. After all, it's a "better" aircraft, promoting superior career expectations. That IS the position you're espousing, right? Or are you going to continue arguing out of both sides of your mouth?
Bubba
First off, I believe First Air in Canada actually has a 767-200F, not a 757. Anyway, I understand where you are going, but you need to follow OYS' advice and look at what arbitrators are ruling. You can state your opinion, but that really doesn't matter compared to the people who actually make those decisions. They are NEUTRALS, who look at the total picutre. If First Air was merging with Air Canada, I really doubt their pilots would be merged into the top of their combined list. But, maybe a few of their guys would. That is what you fail to see, is that arbitrators may throw a few Airtran guys near the top (probably not the top), and then blend them in at some ratio, probably comparable to SWA's size vs Airtran's size. Look at Nicelau's decision at USAir. The top 500 were all USAir East, because they flew A330s and 767s to Europe, and AWA didn't have those types of Operations at the time. The rest of the group was pretty much merged in relative from that point down. AWA was smaller than USAir, but still got that award. I see that SWA is bigger, and has higher profits, but Airtran is NOT in BK, and does have the same type planes (which takes away the USAir --INTL top 500 comparison for you).
Look to the recent past (arbitrated awards), to see what could be in store for any arbitrated list you may have. ALPA knows this, and I think others may be starting to wake up to that fact too. Remember, your airline is bigger, and you could have big ratios between pilots, but there might be a lot more Airtran pilots in higher spots compared to that first offer.
Bye Bye---General Lee