10/250

[dime line]

Mean while back in CGF........good lord you NJA guys really really need to get over yourselves......do you have any idea how you guys sound? im hope you get your 10/250k.....but goodness you make yourselves look like a bunch of pricks.

Hu????? Where do I sign up to be a prick, for 250k

 

[BentOver]

If enough pilots in this union are willing to make it happen and put the company in a position to either make us happy or shut it down, they would be quite foolish to kill the company just because they aren't willing to share the spoils. I'm just not sure we have enough guys and girls who are willing to push it.

With 60%+ making in the mid six figures, not likely.... I know there is some legacy hiring going on, but I doubt there are enough guys to play roulette without a guaranteed backup job...

Sounds nice on a web board and in TEB, " max pay til the last day.." But realistically???

Still the question, what will be the give and take items?

 

[FLYLOW22]

Sounds like the same arguments critics made 10 years ago... Before record profits.

Give and take?

Sounds like enough pilots could leave and many are well over 65 currently with shuffleboard set as there destination (or should). Absent a reason to stay financially, would you?

I make what F/Os make at many airlines today after 8 years of the first CBA and after the 2007 "bump".

"Give and take" comes from a relative position of bargaining strength possessed by both sides.

Today, I think it's a question of retaining labor in the face of a shortage brought on by many factors. 2500TT is a white whale now. Good luck is what I'd tell the company negotiators... And recruiters.


The schedule won't be supported with a pilot exodous... or even a slow creep out the door (which has begun)... and with scope as it is, even with a recall tomorrow, the supplemental lift will absolutely slaughter profits.


If I were CEO, I'd want this contract done fast do as to settle the F/A CBA ASAP as well. Move focus back to the Owners... Where it belongs.

If this is a summer camp job, pilots will not stay. If this is a career destination, that costs money. But so does hiring pilots and lost efficiencies due to "newbies" learning the ropes.

Numbers. Only the tip of the iceberg really.

 

[gunfyter]

Quickly?

I think this is another 5 year mission like our last Star trek adventure.

 

[X-rated]

How can anyone even suggest there is a pilot shortage when their own company has 495 pilots on furlough? A pilot shortage may well be coming, but it is certainly not here yet.

If you want to cash in, don't vote for a long term contract. This is simply not yet the environment required to justify a 110 percent increase. Then again, maybe that's the real reason for asking for something you know you can't possibly get. Drag this thing out for years and hope of the economy and aviation jobs market improve. If that's the goal, wouldn't signing a short term contract with a smaller more reasonable increase be preferable to a long nasty siht fight where everyone loses?

I can't believe how nasty this thread has gotten especially since the pretense is so ridiculous. 10/250 is just negotiating theater. The answer is C, and deep down, everyone knows it.

Before you crush the messenger, maybe someone can answer a question I haven't yet seen addressed? Since every captain has or soon will have 10 year seniority, what are 10/250 supporters trying to get for the FO's? I would think those are the guys most likely to make the jump to the majors.

 

[BushwickBill]

How can anyone even suggest there is a pilot shortage when their own company has 495 pilots on furlough? A pilot shortage may well be coming, but it is certainly not here yet.

If you want to cash in, don't vote for a long term contract. This is simply not yet the environment required to justify a 110 percent increase. Then again, maybe that's the real reason for asking for something you know you can't possibly get. Drag this thing out for years and hope of the economy and aviation jobs market improve. If that's the goal, wouldn't signing a short term contract with a smaller more reasonable increase be preferable to a long nasty siht fight where everyone loses?

I can't believe how nasty this thread has gotten especially since the pretense is so ridiculous. 10/250 is just negotiating theater. The answer is C, and deep down, everyone knows it.

Before you crush the messenger, maybe someone can answer a question I haven't yet seen addressed? Since every captain has or soon will have 10 year seniority, what are 10/250 supporters trying to get for the FO's? I would think those are the guys most likely to make the jump to the majors.

It would be neat if you spent more time worrying about the welfare of the FOs at your place of employment.

Why even mention a pilot shortage that we know will never happen in the 91 or 135 world? All mostly because of one factor, no mandatory retirement age. The flood of retiring airline pilots will come to low rate second tier operations and upgrade out of seniority and mercilessly brow beat their copilots into submission over the way it was done at "my airline". All for beer money.

The behavior of these pilots is summarized perfectly by one of my favorite artists and arguable prophets, Peter Tosh:

http://youtu.be/mpSLiJlkUSs

I applaud the Netjets pilots for attempting to raise the bar. Keep going. Thank you. This glimmer of hope of some kind of change in the race to the bottom behavior infecting the entire industry has not gone unnoticed. I don't think you guys are greedy, you are the only sane pilots at the table. I am personally trying to leave aviation because of the shameful behavior of most pilots. Refusing to retire, offering to pay for type ratings or work for free or simply less than I have asked has been a constant theme during the last ten years. This is the only example I can remember of pilots actually trying to improve things.

I just got a rejection letter from the county police department for becoming a dispatcher. A solar company is hiring and I will send off another resume, one of dozens sent in the last month alone. Just when it couldn't seem to get any worse the Netjets guys ask for more in the face of adversity. I hope I am out of this industry soon but it is nice to see an example of guys attempting to do the right thing. I never thought I would.

 

[BlueNose]

Sounds like the same arguments critics made 10 years ago... Before record profits.

Give and take?

Sounds like enough pilots could leave and many are well over 65 currently with shuffleboard set as there destination (or should). Absent a reason to stay financially, would you?

I make what F/Os make at many airlines today after 8 years of the first CBA and after the 2007 "bump".

"Give and take" comes from a relative position of bargaining strength possessed by both sides.

Today, I think it's a question of retaining labor in the face of a shortage brought on by many factors. 2500TT is a white whale now. Good luck is what I'd tell the company negotiators... And recruiters.


The schedule won't be supported with a pilot exodous... or even a slow creep out the door (which has begun)... and with scope as it is, even with a recall tomorrow, the supplemental lift will absolutely slaughter profits.


If I were CEO, I'd want this contract done fast do as to settle the F/A CBA ASAP as well. Move focus back to the Owners... Where it belongs.

If this is a summer camp job, pilots will not stay. If this is a career destination, that costs money. But so does hiring pilots and lost efficiencies due to "newbies" learning the ropes.

Numbers. Only the tip of the iceberg really.

As you said, numbers. The number that each side can live with will be the final answer, influenced by market factors and the willpower of the players to make the other side blink.

Unfortunately, it doesn't help your pilots' position that their fellows at the next biggest player agreed to the Comair contract of the fractional industry, working the same job at a 25% discount, and for probably another two years at least. And if the mega-merger rumors are at all true, one or both of the other big four could be folded in very soon, and what wage scale do you think they'll be offered? You can be sure the guys across the table will point to the threat from Krazy Kenny's Used Airplanes and his lower labor costs.

Good luck

 

[gunfyter]

X-rated

10 /150 for FO's

Why not take a smaller raise now? My understanding is that Concessions are what is offered now.... I may not be right about that though.

 

[t-bone]

It would be neat if you spent more time worrying about the welfare of the FOs at your place of employment.

It would be neater if you knew what you were talking about. X-Rated hasn't worked here for quite a long time now.

Stop blaming everyone else for where you find yourself in life. If everything seems to be working against you, maybe it's time for some self-reflection.

Telling your coworkers to "GFY" isn't going to make things any easier...

I thought you were going to take the buyout money...what happened there?

 

[fischman]

X-rated

10 /150 for FO's

Why not take a smaller raise now? My understanding is that Concessions are what is offered now.... I may not be right about that though.

I feel our 10 year FO's are worth no less than $180,000

 

[dicko]

You cant win unless you try to win.

I think you are a genius. Or at least some sort of savant. Or a 12 year old that keeps quoting Top Gun. It's really difficult to be sure.

 

[gunfyter]

I feel our 10 year FO's are worth no less than $180,000

I'll drink to that... :beer:

 

[BushwickBill]

It would be neater if you knew what you were talking about. X-Rated hasn't worked here for quite a long time now.

Stop blaming everyone else for where you find yourself in life. If everything seems to be working against you, maybe it's time for some self-reflection.

Telling your coworkers to "GFY" isn't going to make things any easier...

I thought you were going to take the buyout money...what happened there?

Who did I say that to? Did you personally see that? I know who spread that rumor and I approve his expenses. And yet nothing has changed for him regardless of him telling me that he unethically expenses things he shouldn't. You should be very careful repeating the thoughts of morons. What comes out of his mouth is truly astounding at times yet it is eaten up with glee. Amazing.

I asked for the buyout and I didn't get it, much to my regret. If you have the sack PM me with an email and I will gladly send over the paperwork from HR. As for X rated I took his interest in our company as a sign he was employed. Simple mistake really but well worth attacking one over? Another one of our FOs left today. How many more will leave because of the way they have been treated? How long until the facts are so glaring that you can use some empathy for those who work for you and were totally taken advantage of? Taken advantage of by a system that is a literal one way street of feedback and the only reward being a willing lap dog for a temporary period until they realize the system is rigged. There is always trashing the reputation of those who are not afraid to speak out but it speaks to the quality of those willing to participate in that behavior.

The self reflection thing is nonsense. The numbers don't lie nor do my professionalism and track record. I'm guessing your another guy who has never even taken the time to meet me or speak with me in person yet you are more than happy to spread rumors personally attacking me and disregard actual fact. Respect is a two way street, which is the only challenging thing I have mentioned and been bad mouthed for.

Again I want to congratulate the pilots who are true examples of what professionalism is all about. I hope I get to work at any company aviation or otherwise with employees that honor their own value, treats their coworkers with respect and looks towards the future optimistically. You set a great example one that is totally devoid at my place of current employment and to compare our salaries and work rules speaks volumes to the prospective quality of each organization and its pilots.

 

[BentOver]

Unfortunately, it doesn't help your pilots' position that their fellows at the next biggest player agreed to the Comair contract of the fractional industry, working the same job at a 25% discount, Good luck

???? WTF are you saying???

You do realize that Comair struck for 89 days back in 2001, costing Delta well over a billion $$, created a work slowdown by following the book, and had a huge showing of solidarity as evident by the stacks of NO votes piled high at the CP's office door....They signed what was then considered the best contract at the time (I KNOW comparing regional contracts is like comparing who's herpes contraction looks better) They risked alot and stood strong... Nothing but respect for anyone who had the pleasure of passing through Comair's doors..

QOL at Comair for the next few years after that was generally pretty good. (atleast mine was).. Although not much money, I was making more then than most RJ 70-90 seat pilots are making nowadays...with better work rules.

It wasn't until around 2004- that places like CHQ and Mesa put too much pressure on our way of life and unfortunately the Comair pilots slowly gave in and caved on concessionary contracts. And after that it was just a matter of old 50 seaters and being wholly owned by Big D. Delta could pull more strings at Comair than they could with the other contract carriers....

Next time use a different analogy to compare bottom feeders.... I spent some quality time at Comair, which is the reason I never have looked back and had one negative comment about my time there.. IMO time well spent and had a lot of fun and met some good people.

And don't forget what the QOL and wages were like at NJA pre-'05

Mahalo

 

[t-bone]

Bushwick...you gotta do what's best for you. If HR denied your request, that is the first I've heard of that happening. Anyone else get the same response?

This place has changed a lot over the years, and I've got my resumes out there as well. Try not to be so angry though, man. Life is too short.

 

[BushwickBill]

Bushwick...you gotta do what's best for you. If HR denied your request, that is the first I've heard of that happening. Anyone else get the same response?

This place has changed a lot over the years, and I've got my resumes out there as well. Try not to be so angry though, man. Life is too short.

There are others. Just met one in TEB 2 days ago.

Again this thread should go back on track to facilitate those courageous to do what is right for the industry.

 

[gret]

I think you are a genius. Or at least some sort of savant. Or a 12 year old that keeps quoting Top Gun. It's really difficult to be sure.

Excellent dry humor..

For what it's worth-

“You can’t win unless you try to win, but you can lose by trying not to lose.”


― Jack Campbell, Relentless​

 

[X-rated]

It would be neat if you spent more time worrying about the welfare of the FOs at your place of employment.

Bushwick,

There are no FOs at my place of employment. We're all PIC's, and we're all doing just fine. Thanks for your concern.

I'm happy you've decided to get out of the flying business for a multitude of reasons. You may be one of the few XOJETers who don't know who I am on FI, but your reputation definitely precedes you. Enough said.

However, I think you've got me wrong. I want to see NJA pilots get the most they possibly can. It's good for every one of us. However, being unrealistic about the current environment does not further that cause in my opinion. I would think a 25 percent raise is very realistic and could be achieved fairly quickly. Why not take it and try again in a better economy and when pilots finally have some negotiating power? It's obviously their choice; I'm just putting it out there.

 

[gunfyter]

CPI increases for the next 3 years could have been IMPOSED ... BUT were not taken by the other side.

25% is much better than that . You don't think we'd have taken 25% instead of CPI ... especially when we had no choice ...? That option was available under the current cba to extend it.

I am not an negotiator but when that option was not exercised I knew they were aiming for concessions

 

[BushwickBill]

Bushwick,

There are no FOs at my place of employment. We're all PIC's, and we're all doing just fine. Thanks for your concern.

I'm happy you've decided to get out of the flying business for a multitude of reasons. You may be one of the few XOJETers who don't know who I am on FI, but your reputation definitely precedes you. Enough said.

However, I think you've got me wrong. I want to see NJA pilots get the most they possibly can. It's good for every one of us. However, being unrealistic about the current environment does not further that cause in my opinion. I would think a 25 percent raise is very realistic and could be achieved fairly quickly. Why not take it and try again in a better economy and when pilots finally have some negotiating power? It's obviously their choice; I'm just putting it out there.

Ok got your anonymous place of employment mixed up. Woops. I guess in your eyes that leaves the door open for a personal attack. Keep thumping your chest big anonymous tough guy. Not only is there no truth to what you mention it just makes you look bad.

I'll just stick with the facts thanks. How about this one: the fact that the FO who just left today was never even given the opportunity to operate an aircraft as PIC despite thousands of hours of mentoring speaks volumes regarding the quality of that mentorship. I personally would never want to see someone's development stagnate or ruin ones profesional reputation based on rumor, notably one I had never even met.

That however is just me. Obviously not cut out for this "career."