10/250

[Blueridgeflyer]

What's the maximum?

The maximum should be derived by a proper balance between employee value and a fair return to BRK.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Is Gutshot a negotiator? If he is then present it, if not then what's the point of presenting the idea here.

No, I'm not on the negotiating team. But I wanted to get a feel for what people OUTSIDE the NJASAP echo chamber message board think of the 10/250 concept.

The discussion, for the most part, has been respectful and enlightening.

 

[fischman]

What's the maximum?

The minimum is set by the union. The maximum by the company. That's how negotiations work.

 

[dicko]

No, I don't yet. The number is highly dependant on the rest of the sections. You should know that.

Here's one way to look at it:

Your company will operate a jet thats only equal in range is a 777 or higher. A jet that operates at cruise speeds that exceed a 777 or higher. A jet that provides a level of service, security, luxury and privacy that far exceeds the most expensive seat on any commercial jet in the world. Singapore Airlines first class included.

A Southwest Captain makes more than $250K. A 777 Captain with a first class cabin makes more than $250K. What are Global 8000/G650 Captains going to make in China ? I bet it will reach $250K.

Every Captain responsible, for every comparable method of travel, is paid at that level or above.

 

[imacdog]

Awesome, Dicko. How much revenue does that 777 bring in on a typical flight?

 

[imacdog]

Once again iMac dog, what do you consider an appropriate raise?

I've already answered multiple times. But to ask you a question - what are you willing to give up to get that 250K for a 7/7 10-year captain?

Any other belieber is welcome to answer as well.

 

[dicko]

Awesome, Dicko. How much revenue does that 777 bring in on a typical flight?

Great question. How much does it cost to operate ? It's an economy of scale issue. The margin is surprisingly small. We could use a 737 as an example; The pay is still over $250K and the margins are small. I think the margin for a Global operated by NJA is better than a 737. Shouldn't that be reflected in the pilots pay ?

Boeing estimates that 50% of an airlines revenue is generated by 10% of its seats. That 10% is the premium seating.The cost of those seats is chump change compared to what a NJ owner pays.

My point is; the owners are expecting the highest level of transportation that is available today, and they're paying a huge premium for it. The pilots are being compensated somewhere between a well paid regional and a National airline. There's a disconnect.

Happy to be corrected. Hopefully the NJ Pilots negotiating Committee knows the answers. Good luck to all.

 

[jonjuan]

Here's one way to look at it:

Your company will operate a jet thats only equal in range is a 777 or higher. A jet that operates at cruise speeds that exceed a 777 or higher. A jet that provides a level of service, security, luxury and privacy that far exceeds the most expensive seat on any commercial jet in the world. Singapore Airlines first class included.

A Southwest Captain makes more than $250K. A 777 Captain with a first class cabin makes more than $250K. What are Global 8000/G650 Captains going to make in China ? I bet it will reach $250K.

Every Captain responsible, for every comparable method of travel, is paid at that level or above.

But I thought flylow and Fisch didn't want to be compared to the airlines?

 

[gret]

Great question. How much does it cost to operate ? It's an economy of scale issue. The margin is surprisingly small. We could use a 737 as an example; The pay is still over $250K and the margins are small. I think the margin for a Global operated by NJA is better than a 737. Shouldn't that be reflected in the pilots pay ?

Boeing estimates that 50% of an airlines revenue is generated by 10% of its seats. That 10% is the premium seating.The cost of those seats is chump change compared to what a NJ owner pays.

My point is; the owners are expecting the highest level of transportation that is available today, and they're paying a huge premium for it. The pilots are being compensated somewhere between a well paid regional and a National airline. There's a disconnect.

Happy to be corrected. Hopefully the NJ Pilots negotiating Committee knows the answers. Good luck to all.

Bit of a disconnect...how much utilization is there with an airliner versus a corporate jet...not even close so the figures are meaningless...

 

[gunfyter]

The maximum pay....

Is whatever sum it is that is more cost efficient or otherwise more beneficial than replacing the worker.... It's the union's job to find out what that number is and get it negotiated into the next CBA.

The minimum pay ...

is whatever number it takes to keep most of the workers from leaving the property so as to minimize replacement cost. Its the company negotiators job to find that number.

 

[brokeflyer]

what are you willing to give up to get that 250K for a 7/7 10-year captain?

so much has been given up over the last 10 years by the pilot group, there isnt anything left to give back.

The company will need to bring their end up first.

 

[cldsfr79]

You know why I would vote down 10/250? It's not because I don't think I deserve it, it's because some of the guys that thump their chest saying they want "10/250" don't deserve it and I don't want them to have it.

They are the non-cream-of-the-crop senior guys that I worry about and get frustrated with on a daily bases. Planes not clean, stock a mess, they are more interested in catching the game on a comfy lazy-boy chair in the FBO than doing anything else. They think that the FO is supposed to do everything, and that they just come up to the cockpit to start the engines and at the end of the flight they walk off saying how they have to go and do the paper work (which takes all of 2 minutes but takes them a 1/2 hour).

And.....
Because these guys can barely pass an open book FOM test (when we used to be tested on it). Because it is a struggle for them just to make it through their 6 month recurrent because they don't care to study or take it serious (we are required by the company to take orals, which can be more lenient, because the company fears that guys would fail writtens....true story). Because when another trip drops on their schedule I hear "oh I'm not doing that, that's BS, I'm fatigued", and I have to come and wipe their a$$ and cover their trip. Because they will convince you that sick days are all personal days that they can constantly use them when ever the weather is good enough to go golfing. Because they don't iron their shirts, polish their shoes, or wear the proper uniform jacket. Because the retired guys will never leave and this place and would use it as an unlimited ATM for them. Because they think they are still flying freight. Because they completely don't understand the meaning of a luxury experience, even though they have been flying private jets for 10+ years. Because in the next recession when I get downgraded and/or furloughed, these guys will still be there.

Although these guys are a minority, I don't want them to get a penny more for their piss poor work ethic, behavior, and skills. You act like a professional, you get more pay. Ok, discuss........

 

[gret]

Guess you didn't have a great day!

 

[dime line]

You know why I would vote down 10/250? It's not because I don't think I deserve it, it's because some of the guys that thump their chest saying they want "10/250" don't deserve it and I don't want them to have it

Now that makes a lot of sense! ......................Small print.........I get what your saying

 

[PoorGuy]

You know why I would vote down 10/250? It's not because I don't think I deserve it, it's because some of the guys that thump their chest saying they want "10/250" don't deserve it and I don't want them to have it.

Although these guys are a minority, I don't want them to get a penny more for their piss poor work ethic, behavior, and skills. You act like a professional, you get more pay. Ok, discuss........

Dude, seriously???
I'm sure you are frustrated, but why would you cut off your nose to spite your face? You don't want to bring home more money for your family because of a few turds? You said they were the minority anyway...

 

[rajflyboy]

oh yes

I pick my surgeon because he was the one wearing the suit coat. that makes him better at his job

 

[G4dude]

Dude, seriously???
I'm sure you are frustrated, but why would you cut off your nose to spite your face? You don't want to bring home more money for your family because of a few turds? You said they were the minority anyway...

He may have just been having a bad day, which is understandable.

 

[jtf]

My thoughts on 10/250. The company is making enough now to pay it and still make hundreds of millions in profit. Unless the economy tanks again they should keep making more and more as they are selling a lot of new metal and add the mx costs go down and reliability and efficiency go up with the new and tougher fleets replacing the old fleets. While some profit comes from selling away old airplanes, this will always be the case since old airplanes will always be sold away and replace by new ones.

While the company could afford to pay it without killing the company, I strongly doubt it will come to pass. I just don't believe enough pilots here now will be willing to provide the leverage to the negotiating team to make it happen. I fly with a lot of guys who are comfortable and not willing to fight. They all claim they won't take concessions, but they sure aren't going to move the bar higher. I am doing my part to improve things. Broke is broke wherever it is broke. As an SIC I've been doing many write ups when the captain's wouldn't. I've been refusing to fly broken (hard breaks) when the captain's wanted to push on. I've been calling in fatigued when I'm tired while watching many captains who appear in worse shape then me want to push on. I have a strike/ furlough fund set aside to last almost 2 years if need be. I'm doing my best to convince everyone I fly with that they won't give us anything, we must earn the improvements and sitting on the sidelines now doesn't help at all. I like it here and I will stay unless we don't get large improvements. I will look at the whole agreement to decide if it is large enough and then I'll go elsewhere if the pilot group votes in a weak contact. Personally I'll probably leave if the entire package isn't at least a 50% improvement. I'm not sure if I'll stay in aviation if I leave or not. I just know I'll be too disgusted in my fellow co-workers to stay if they wuss out. It is very frustrating to watch the same guys who fought so hard in '05 not jumping immediately back in to do what they know it takes to get improvements.

 

[gret]

NetJets had earnings of $227 million in 2011 and were "unchanged" in 2012. This is per the Berkshire filings and the 2012 comment is in reference to FlightSafety and NetJets combined so we don't know if one was up or down.

The question remains is how can people continue to say that the company can increase compensation expense by over $260 million and the company will still "make hundreds of millions in profit"? Netjets has never made $260 million in profits...

The math simply doesn't work..

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

My thoughts on 10/250. The company is making enough now to pay it and still make hundreds of millions in profit. Unless the economy tanks again they should keep making more and more as they are selling a lot of new metal and add the mx costs go down and reliability and efficiency go up with the new and tougher fleets replacing the old fleets. While some profit comes from selling away old airplanes, this will always be the case since old airplanes will always be sold away and replace by new ones.

While the company could afford to pay it without killing the company, I strongly doubt it will come to pass. I just don't believe enough pilots here now will be willing to provide the leverage to the negotiating team to make it happen. I fly with a lot of guys who are comfortable and not willing to fight. They all claim they won't take concessions, but they sure aren't going to move the bar higher. I am doing my part to improve things. Broke is broke wherever it is broke. As an SIC I've been doing many write ups when the captain's wouldn't. I've been refusing to fly broken (hard breaks) when the captain's wanted to push on. I've been calling in fatigued when I'm tired while watching many captains who appear in worse shape then me want to push on. I have a strike/ furlough fund set aside to last almost 2 years if need be. I'm doing my best to convince everyone I fly with that they won't give us anything, we must earn the improvements and sitting on the sidelines now doesn't help at all. I like it here and I will stay unless we don't get large improvements. I will look at the whole agreement to decide if it is large enough and then I'll go elsewhere if the pilot group votes in a weak contact. Personally I'll probably leave if the entire package isn't at least a 50% improvement. I'm not sure if I'll stay in aviation if I leave or not. I just know I'll be too disgusted in my fellow co-workers to stay if they wuss out. It is very frustrating to watch the same guys who fought so hard in '05 not jumping immediately back in to do what they know it takes to get improvements.

This is a terrific read and I am generally in agreement. However the race is going to be lengthy in regards to the process of securing a contract. At present, the membership isn't really spun up on what the company can actually afford to compensate pilots, while still keeping Omaha relatively pleased. This will change over the course of the next few years as newer airframes begin to land on property coupled with record sales figures and owner movements. By that time, more contracts will become ratified throughout the industry compensated by COLA. The dam will burst in negotiations and the company will have to reposture to stay competitive. I think the final figure in 2015 could exceed your expectations in many respects. The educational process will begin in earnest soon...in the meantime keep being the consummate professional that you are.