10/250

[BushwickBill]

I hope you guys get paid. I'm sick of working for second rate pay for a second rate company. I hate the fact I work for the low baller. I hope you guys get everything you ask for. It will help all the pilots.

 

[BentOver]

This is kind of a pointless argument

On one side are the pilots who are in the trenches being overworked and yes underpaid.. But doing the rah rah " max pay til the last day or burn this MF down" cheerleading..

On the other are guys on the outside who are trying to figure out how NJASAP plans to nearly double the salary...( without taking a concession on any other portion of the contract) during a time of severely reduced a/c and with pilots still on furlough..

We all know the company is not just gonna cough up pay increases..... And we all know that no negotiation is one sided, so the two sides will meet somewhere between the two desires....

Like I said, pointless......, when the negotiators deem a acceptable agreement is reached they will present it for vote.. There will be the guys who vote NO just on principle, and the will be those who are too scared to vote NO... Then there will be those who actually become informed and knowledgable about what is in the TA, and make an informed decision.. ( the realists)

The company is not gonna get their desire to reduce pilot costs, and the Pilots are not gonna get $250K without giving up a lot in other sections....

Every negotiation goes through the same steps, we hear the same rah rah cheerleading over and over, and in the end sometimes it's a win sometimes not.... But no group is ever 100% satisfied...

Same story different company...NJa is no different, it was a good company to work for, but not that much different than any other company...

No dog left in the fight, but still follow NJA closely.. I do have a number in mind that I would deem acceptable... I personally believe the major airline captains, who make the $250K type money, should be the highest paid....

Btw I was at Comair over a decade ago through F.Butrells hair cut party, so as you can imagine I do know the shenanigans management will attempt... I got the t-shirt

 

[hopalong]

A majority of them are surprisingly satisfied....which is good on face value,

All owners I know a very satisfied with the pilots. I think many of them will not complain to the pilots about problems and issues the owners are having with operations. My guess is all newcomers to private aviation are ecstatic (as we all once were). However, longer owners of NJ shares see the service as inferior to what it once was. It is all about expectations -- when these are incredibly great and responsive (a 100 on a scale), getting a mere 96 while still great is a step down. The real test of owners' sentiment is where their private aviation dollars are going -- and the "net flow" of these dollars is not into NJ. I have also pointed out before how various departments at NJ can "play" with their numbers to make their department look better and management then uses the same numbers to show how wonderful things are -- but so far from reality.

The old NJ culture was do whatever it takes to get an owner where they expect to be on time or as close to it. That is no longer the culture. I have had quite a number of flights (some in the past year, and this has happened to others I know) where operations decides it is better to give the owner the contractual credit for a late flight (capped at 2 hours in the last few years of contracts -- but it did not used to be capped) than actually bring in a recovery aircraft (which may be larger) or use sell off. While that may save NJ $$, it does not make for happy owners. This is especially true as sales uses the "depth" of the NJ and EJM fleets for recovery purposes as one of the major reasons to use NJ and not a competitor.

NJA Owner,

We appreciate your business and your concerns should be addressed. We would be so appreciative and grateful if you would write a letter to Warren Buffet explaining your frustration along with other owner friends of yours. We also take notice of the culture change and it is not for the better. I believe that if Mr. Buffet knew what is really going on behind the scenes, he would make a drastic change for the better.

Warrens philosophy has always been safety first, and give our owners the best
of the best. He even states, quoted by Richard Santulli, "Safety first, I don't care what it costs."

I would like to share with you that as an aviator for netjets, there are times that I worry about paying my bills. Do you realize that on a 7 on 7 off schedule, I gross after 8 years of service, less than $80,000 per year. I have been flying since I was 15 years old. I went to college, earned a bachelors degree, went to flight school, paid $25,000 for it. I worked flight instructing for a year, flew cargo for 2 years. I have worked flying professionally, mostly corporate, for more than fifteen years. Friends of mine have a nine to five job making much more money and they get to see their families every day. We do not. We are away from our families in a strange bed for half of the year. We miss birthdays, mothers day, fathers day, thanksgivings, christmas', easters, halloweens, school plays etc..
We are not complaining, but pointing out the facts. We are highly competent, and our average new hire far exceeds the airline minimum hours.

Aren't we worth top pay for our experience and skill set? Would you prefer to have a low time pilot with less experience flying you and your family? Personally, I wouldn't if given the choice. However, I have no choice but to fly on low cost carriers because of my meager wages. I would be infuriated if I were you to know that your pilots may be in the cockpit worrying about bills. Peace of mind equals safety, period....

I would encourage you to write a letter for CHANGE.... I appreciate your sentiment for our pilot group and we appreciate your business. Afterall, you pay our salary, and for that, we thank you... I would hope that the company would not pass on our wage increase to you. You deserve the "best of the best" and we hope that you will be patient with all of us during this negotaiating time. We will try to provide you with exceptional service, even though our current leadership is lacking in leading by example.

Please let us know if you will be willing to write such a letter because your one voice is more powerful than the entirety of our pilot workforce. Thank you kindly...

 

[gret]

Your request to NJAOwner should make every swinging d!ck cringe. Real men don't beg, cry, or complain...

Warren has already been sought out for support of his workers...see link below. He wouldn't help out coal miners making $52K a year..so I doubt he will jump at the chance to pay pilots making $80K and up more.

http://www.valuewalk.com/2013/05/united-mine-workers-seek-warren-buffetts-help/​

If he were to answer it should/would be..."sure, let's give them more money...how much do you, as a client, want to kick in to help these poor overworked boys out?"

Buffett considers NetJets one of his worst investments ever in case you didn't know.

 

[hopalong]

gret,

First and foremost, I totally understand your anger and frustration! You are PISSED and rightly so! Let me guess why you are angry. Shall we? I can not speak for you but I will tell you why I am angry. I am pissed that I was under the delusion in my teens and twenties that a pilots salary would be equivalent to an attorney or surgeon. I am pissed that my kids cry when I leave for a seven day tour. I am pissed that my wife has to hold down the fort and work while I am gone because my income alone is not sustainable. I am pissed that I have to present a happy face to our owners and pretend that "life is good."I am pissed that we have fellow brothers and sisters, STILL FURLOUGHED while we sell off and piss off owners. I am pissed that our brand of luxury may be destroyed because of poor leadership. I am pissed that we have PISSED OFF OWNERS!!!!!!!

I read the article you suggested. I feel your pain brother and I am in the same fight along side you. You may conclude that I am not a real man. May be, you are right.... I cry, I beg, and I do complain...

However, my family means the WORLD to me. If I need to cry, beg, borrow and be a donkeys behind to insure my girls futures, it is what I will do. Please do not cringe because I am imploring the help of an NJA owner. He came to flightinfo.com and joined because he is most likely interested in aviation. Why not ask for help in our time of need????

I, personally love making people happy and go out of my way to deliver exceptional service. If I am not paid accordingly, I will take my superior set of skills and service elsewhere and I hope you will do the same gret....

 

[Willy21]

I, personally love making people happy and go out of my way to deliver exceptional service. If I am not paid accordingly, I will take my superior set of skills and service elsewhere and I hope you will do the same gret....

+1... I really enjoy the type of flying we do and the ability to make things happen for our owners. Unfortunately when the call comes I will not think twice about moving on. "It is what it is."

 

[FLYLOW22]

Of course you're netjets, however, many of your pilots come from the regionals. There could be hiring announced tomorrow and thousands of qualified regional pilots, many of whom wont be hired by the major airlines or don't desire to work there, would line up to apply. Heck, most would still do so if the pay were 75% of what it currently is.
Unfortunately, management understands this. It's called leverage.

That's the weakest hand of leverage possible.

This operation will studder or suffer the worst possible fate playing that hand.

Headlines. Bad ones.

That's no game to play or win.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Here's my guess...
Anyone that believes this 10/250 idea is real has been punked!

No one can believe their own press enough to think they "deserve" that much for so little, except maybe Bieber.

Don't mistake your lack of self worth for mine please.


And thank you.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Don't mistake your lack of self worth for mine please.


And thank you.

I always figured you had loads of self worth...


Was that a misplaced modifier or a dangling participle? Doc Bayless would be mortified....

I keed, I keed

 

[FLYLOW22]

I always figured you had loads of self worth...


Was that a misplaced modifier or a dangling participle? Doc Bayless would be mortified....

I keed, I keed

Ha!


Damnit! I suck!

 

[msculley6905]

A majority of them are surprisingly satisfied....which is good on face value,

All owners I know a very satisfied with the pilots. I think many of them will not complain to the pilots about problems and issues the owners are having with operations. My guess is all newcomers to private aviation are ecstatic (as we all once were). However, longer owners of NJ shares see the service as inferior to what it once was. It is all about expectations -- when these are incredibly great and responsive (a 100 on a scale), getting a mere 96 while still great is a step down. The real test of owners' sentiment is where their private aviation dollars are going -- and the "net flow" of these dollars is not into NJ. I have also pointed out before how various departments at NJ can "play" with their numbers to make their department look better and management then uses the same numbers to show how wonderful things are -- but so far from reality.

The old NJ culture was do whatever it takes to get an owner where they expect to be on time or as close to it. That is no longer the culture. I have had quite a number of flights (some in the past year, and this has happened to others I know) where operations decides it is better to give the owner the contractual credit for a late flight (capped at 2 hours in the last few years of contracts -- but it did not used to be capped) than actually bring in a recovery aircraft (which may be larger) or use sell off. While that may save NJ $$, it does not make for happy owners. This is especially true as sales uses the "depth" of the NJ and EJM fleets for recovery purposes as one of the major reasons to use NJ and not a competitor.

As a scheduler (for tomorrow's activity) i can honestly say that I've never heard of us FORCING an owner to take a delay. The process for recovery always (and i emphasize always since i have to fix the plan when it changes) is the fastest option for departure ( may be upgrade/downgrade), followed by equivalent aircraft type with a possible longer delay. And those options are always relayed through owner service and the owner makes the final decision (as it should be). I can't speak how/if cretits are issued, but just know that we never make day-of recovery decisions based on operating costs. That's our job in next-day, to turn over the most optimized/efficient schedule possible.

And to the pilot group: feel free to PM me on why we do the things we do. I'd be happy to explain why it doesn't always make immediate sense.

 

[727C47]

Fischman, We ,you,are worth 10/250 ,fight the fight,I'm one of the 495 too,dont let the depressives bring you down, go for it, you,we,are worth it. I love my current job,in fact I may never return to NJA,but I think what you are doing is brilliant. If the "realists" were listened to,Everest would never have been climbed, the Moon never obtained,and the Mets would never have won in '69, GO FOR IT !!!

 

[NJAowner]

I've never heard of us FORCING an owner to take a delay

You are correct -- I have never been "forced" -- threatened with bodily harm or threats to my family. Yes -- I have voluntarily and of my own free will accepted NJ's offer to fly me many many hours past my requested departure time (my only other option was not to fly NJ). So yes, you are correct.

On the other point, the head of my OS team and someone very, very, very high ranking at NJ told me that economics now does play into the equation in an attempt help keep the owners' costs down -- how nice of them. A GIV is not coming from the east coast to handle a 1 hour Excel recovery flight on the west coast. Do you also believe that due to the incredible systems in place every catering order is delivered to the plane with 100% accuracy?

 

[FLYLOW22]

It certainly is good to see the Trolls out once again... and under different monikers these days.

Just like old times.

 

[fischman]

Fischman, We ,you,are worth 10/250 ,fight the fight,I'm one of the 495 too,dont let the depressives bring you down, go for it, you,we,are worth it. I love my current job,in fact I may never return to NJA,but I think what you are doing is brilliant. If the "realists" were listened to,Everest would never have been climbed, the Moon never obtained,and the Mets would never have won in '69, GO FOR IT !!!

Of course it is. I'm brilliantly awesome.

Thanks for the support. We will get there. 5 naysayers on an anonymous Internet message board sometimes seem like the world is against you, but it isn't. It's just 5 people who don't realize what they are worth. You know what you call someone who doesn't know their worth? WORTHLESS.

 

[fischman]

It certainly is good to see the Trolls out once again... and under different monikers these days.

Just like old times.

With bacon.

 

[msculley6905]

I've never heard of us FORCING an owner to take a delay

You are correct -- I have never been "forced" -- threatened with bodily harm or threats to my family. Yes -- I have voluntarily and of my own free will accepted NJ's offer to fly me many many hours past my requested departure time (my only other option was not to fly NJ). So yes, you are correct.

On the other point, the head of my OS team and someone very, very, very high ranking at NJ told me that economics now does play into the equation in an attempt help keep the owners' costs down -- how nice of them. A GIV is not coming from the east coast to handle a 1 hour Excel recovery flight on the west coast. Do you also believe that due to the incredible systems in place every catering order is delivered to the plane with 100% accuracy?

Agree with you that i've never seen a G ferry 5 hours coast to coast for a recovery a 1 hour excel flight, but that's rarely needed. However, i have seen a G ferry 3 hours, then a X ferry 2 hours, then multiple XLs add ferry time as well due to one recovery. Economics does play into the equation, but it's only to find the best solution for other flights affected AFTER the fix for the recovery is established. Far from the primary motivator.

Re: catering...no, I'm not that naieve. But until we get our own catering at all locations, we rely on vendors. Mistakes happen, but i've never seen us substitute crawfish for lobster just because it looks the same and is cheaper.

 

[Ultra Grump]

I have also pointed out before how various departments at NJ can "play" with their numbers to make their department look better and management then uses the same numbers to show how wonderful things are -- but so far from reality.

This is the problem with NJA's new metrics-driven culture. As long as the numbers look good, it doesn't matter what the reality is.

The old NJ culture was do whatever it takes to get an owner where they expect to be on time or as close to it. That is no longer the culture. I have had quite a number of flights (some in the past year, and this has happened to others I know) where operations decides it is better to give the owner the contractual credit for a late flight (capped at 2 hours in the last few years of contracts -- but it did not used to be capped) than actually bring in a recovery aircraft (which may be larger) or use sell off. While that may save NJ $$, it does not make for happy owners. This is especially true as sales uses the "depth" of the NJ and EJM fleets for recovery purposes as one of the major reasons to use NJ and not a competitor.

This will not change until Boy Wonder is gone. The owners (read: you) need to let Warren Buffett know what is happening and your perceptions of the business. He only knows what he sees and is being told. I'll guarantee you WB's flights are NEVER delayed, and his service has suffered not one iota. To him, everything is running perfectly here.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Like I said, pointless......, when the negotiators deem a acceptable agreement is reached they will present it for vote.. There will be the guys who vote NO just on principle, and the will be those who are too scared to vote NO... Then there will be those who actually become informed and knowledgable about what is in the TA, and make an informed decision.. ( the realists)

The last group is actually the smallest. You forgot the largest group of voters - those that only read section 27, and vote accordingly.

 

[dashtrasher]

Is Gutshot a negotiator? If he is then present it, if not then what's the point of presenting the idea here.