Blueridgeflyer
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The maximum should be derived by a proper balance between employee value and a fair return to BRK.
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10/250
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gutshotdraw
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No, I'm not on the negotiating team. But I wanted to get a feel for what people OUTSIDE the NJASAP echo chamber message board think of the 10/250 concept.
The discussion, for the most part, has been respectful and enlightening.
fischman
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The minimum is set by the union. The maximum by the company. That's how negotiations work.
dicko
"It's a formidable scent"
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Here's one way to look at it:
Your company will operate a jet thats only equal in range is a 777 or higher. A jet that operates at cruise speeds that exceed a 777 or higher. A jet that provides a level of service, security, luxury and privacy that far exceeds the most expensive seat on any commercial jet in the world. Singapore Airlines first class included.
A Southwest Captain makes more than $250K. A 777 Captain with a first class cabin makes more than $250K. What are Global 8000/G650 Captains going to make in China ? I bet it will reach $250K.
Every Captain responsible, for every comparable method of travel, is paid at that level or above.
imacdog
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I've already answered multiple times. But to ask you a question - what are you willing to give up to get that 250K for a 7/7 10-year captain?
Any other belieber is welcome to answer as well.
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dicko
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Great question. How much does it cost to operate ? It's an economy of scale issue. The margin is surprisingly small. We could use a 737 as an example; The pay is still over $250K and the margins are small. I think the margin for a Global operated by NJA is better than a 737. Shouldn't that be reflected in the pilots pay ?
Boeing estimates that 50% of an airlines revenue is generated by 10% of its seats. That 10% is the premium seating.The cost of those seats is chump change compared to what a NJ owner pays.
My point is; the owners are expecting the highest level of transportation that is available today, and they're paying a huge premium for it. The pilots are being compensated somewhere between a well paid regional and a National airline. There's a disconnect.
Happy to be corrected. Hopefully the NJ Pilots negotiating Committee knows the answers. Good luck to all.
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But I thought flylow and Fisch didn't want to be compared to the airlines?
Bit of a disconnect...how much utilization is there with an airliner versus a corporate jet...not even close so the figures are meaningless...
gunfyter
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The maximum pay....
Is whatever sum it is that is more cost efficient or otherwise more beneficial than replacing the worker.... It's the union's job to find out what that number is and get it negotiated into the next CBA.
The minimum pay ...
is whatever number it takes to keep most of the workers from leaving the property so as to minimize replacement cost. Its the company negotiators job to find that number.
Is whatever sum it is that is more cost efficient or otherwise more beneficial than replacing the worker.... It's the union's job to find out what that number is and get it negotiated into the next CBA.
The minimum pay ...
is whatever number it takes to keep most of the workers from leaving the property so as to minimize replacement cost. Its the company negotiators job to find that number.
brokeflyer
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so much has been given up over the last 10 years by the pilot group, there isnt anything left to give back.
The company will need to bring their end up first.
You know why I would vote down 10/250? It's not because I don't think I deserve it, it's because some of the guys that thump their chest saying they want "10/250" don't deserve it and I don't want them to have it.
They are the non-cream-of-the-crop senior guys that I worry about and get frustrated with on a daily bases. Planes not clean, stock a mess, they are more interested in catching the game on a comfy lazy-boy chair in the FBO than doing anything else. They think that the FO is supposed to do everything, and that they just come up to the cockpit to start the engines and at the end of the flight they walk off saying how they have to go and do the paper work (which takes all of 2 minutes but takes them a 1/2 hour).
And.....
Because these guys can barely pass an open book FOM test (when we used to be tested on it). Because it is a struggle for them just to make it through their 6 month recurrent because they don't care to study or take it serious (we are required by the company to take orals, which can be more lenient, because the company fears that guys would fail writtens....true story). Because when another trip drops on their schedule I hear "oh I'm not doing that, that's BS, I'm fatigued", and I have to come and wipe their a$$ and cover their trip. Because they will convince you that sick days are all personal days that they can constantly use them when ever the weather is good enough to go golfing. Because they don't iron their shirts, polish their shoes, or wear the proper uniform jacket. Because the retired guys will never leave and this place and would use it as an unlimited ATM for them. Because they think they are still flying freight. Because they completely don't understand the meaning of a luxury experience, even though they have been flying private jets for 10+ years. Because in the next recession when I get downgraded and/or furloughed, these guys will still be there.
Although these guys are a minority, I don't want them to get a penny more for their piss poor work ethic, behavior, and skills. You act like a professional, you get more pay. Ok, discuss........
They are the non-cream-of-the-crop senior guys that I worry about and get frustrated with on a daily bases. Planes not clean, stock a mess, they are more interested in catching the game on a comfy lazy-boy chair in the FBO than doing anything else. They think that the FO is supposed to do everything, and that they just come up to the cockpit to start the engines and at the end of the flight they walk off saying how they have to go and do the paper work (which takes all of 2 minutes but takes them a 1/2 hour).
And.....
Because these guys can barely pass an open book FOM test (when we used to be tested on it). Because it is a struggle for them just to make it through their 6 month recurrent because they don't care to study or take it serious (we are required by the company to take orals, which can be more lenient, because the company fears that guys would fail writtens....true story). Because when another trip drops on their schedule I hear "oh I'm not doing that, that's BS, I'm fatigued", and I have to come and wipe their a$$ and cover their trip. Because they will convince you that sick days are all personal days that they can constantly use them when ever the weather is good enough to go golfing. Because they don't iron their shirts, polish their shoes, or wear the proper uniform jacket. Because the retired guys will never leave and this place and would use it as an unlimited ATM for them. Because they think they are still flying freight. Because they completely don't understand the meaning of a luxury experience, even though they have been flying private jets for 10+ years. Because in the next recession when I get downgraded and/or furloughed, these guys will still be there.
Although these guys are a minority, I don't want them to get a penny more for their piss poor work ethic, behavior, and skills. You act like a professional, you get more pay. Ok, discuss........
Dude, seriously???
I'm sure you are frustrated, but why would you cut off your nose to spite your face? You don't want to bring home more money for your family because of a few turds? You said they were the minority anyway...
He may have just been having a bad day, which is understandable.
My thoughts on 10/250. The company is making enough now to pay it and still make hundreds of millions in profit. Unless the economy tanks again they should keep making more and more as they are selling a lot of new metal and add the mx costs go down and reliability and efficiency go up with the new and tougher fleets replacing the old fleets. While some profit comes from selling away old airplanes, this will always be the case since old airplanes will always be sold away and replace by new ones.
While the company could afford to pay it without killing the company, I strongly doubt it will come to pass. I just don't believe enough pilots here now will be willing to provide the leverage to the negotiating team to make it happen. I fly with a lot of guys who are comfortable and not willing to fight. They all claim they won't take concessions, but they sure aren't going to move the bar higher. I am doing my part to improve things. Broke is broke wherever it is broke. As an SIC I've been doing many write ups when the captain's wouldn't. I've been refusing to fly broken (hard breaks) when the captain's wanted to push on. I've been calling in fatigued when I'm tired while watching many captains who appear in worse shape then me want to push on. I have a strike/ furlough fund set aside to last almost 2 years if need be. I'm doing my best to convince everyone I fly with that they won't give us anything, we must earn the improvements and sitting on the sidelines now doesn't help at all. I like it here and I will stay unless we don't get large improvements. I will look at the whole agreement to decide if it is large enough and then I'll go elsewhere if the pilot group votes in a weak contact. Personally I'll probably leave if the entire package isn't at least a 50% improvement. I'm not sure if I'll stay in aviation if I leave or not. I just know I'll be too disgusted in my fellow co-workers to stay if they wuss out. It is very frustrating to watch the same guys who fought so hard in '05 not jumping immediately back in to do what they know it takes to get improvements.
While the company could afford to pay it without killing the company, I strongly doubt it will come to pass. I just don't believe enough pilots here now will be willing to provide the leverage to the negotiating team to make it happen. I fly with a lot of guys who are comfortable and not willing to fight. They all claim they won't take concessions, but they sure aren't going to move the bar higher. I am doing my part to improve things. Broke is broke wherever it is broke. As an SIC I've been doing many write ups when the captain's wouldn't. I've been refusing to fly broken (hard breaks) when the captain's wanted to push on. I've been calling in fatigued when I'm tired while watching many captains who appear in worse shape then me want to push on. I have a strike/ furlough fund set aside to last almost 2 years if need be. I'm doing my best to convince everyone I fly with that they won't give us anything, we must earn the improvements and sitting on the sidelines now doesn't help at all. I like it here and I will stay unless we don't get large improvements. I will look at the whole agreement to decide if it is large enough and then I'll go elsewhere if the pilot group votes in a weak contact. Personally I'll probably leave if the entire package isn't at least a 50% improvement. I'm not sure if I'll stay in aviation if I leave or not. I just know I'll be too disgusted in my fellow co-workers to stay if they wuss out. It is very frustrating to watch the same guys who fought so hard in '05 not jumping immediately back in to do what they know it takes to get improvements.
NetJets had earnings of $227 million in 2011 and were "unchanged" in 2012. This is per the Berkshire filings and the 2012 comment is in reference to FlightSafety and NetJets combined so we don't know if one was up or down.
The question remains is how can people continue to say that the company can increase compensation expense by over $260 million and the company will still "make hundreds of millions in profit"? Netjets has never made $260 million in profits...
The math simply doesn't work..
The question remains is how can people continue to say that the company can increase compensation expense by over $260 million and the company will still "make hundreds of millions in profit"? Netjets has never made $260 million in profits...
The math simply doesn't work..
Blueridgeflyer
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This is a terrific read and I am generally in agreement. However the race is going to be lengthy in regards to the process of securing a contract. At present, the membership isn't really spun up on what the company can actually afford to compensate pilots, while still keeping Omaha relatively pleased. This will change over the course of the next few years as newer airframes begin to land on property coupled with record sales figures and owner movements. By that time, more contracts will become ratified throughout the industry compensated by COLA. The dam will burst in negotiations and the company will have to reposture to stay competitive. I think the final figure in 2015 could exceed your expectations in many respects. The educational process will begin in earnest soon...in the meantime keep being the consummate professional that you are.
First off, more power to you if you can get the raises/improvements you are seeking.
My question is this: what will a pay scale based on 10/250 cost compared to your current pay scale? There's is a lot of talk about NJ's profits and that they can easily afford this, but what are the actual #s? Also, have any plans been released about how these new aircraft on order will be distributed between US/Europe/China operations?
Good luck guys!
My question is this: what will a pay scale based on 10/250 cost compared to your current pay scale? There's is a lot of talk about NJ's profits and that they can easily afford this, but what are the actual #s? Also, have any plans been released about how these new aircraft on order will be distributed between US/Europe/China operations?
Good luck guys!
The company has posted profits over 200 million for the last three years. The company has paid off over 1 billion in debt over the same time. They pay Berkshire a fee of 30 or 40 million per year just to guarantee debt- that doesn't include any interest paid that also goes straight back to Berkshire. The company pays full price at Flight Safety- another Berkshire company. The company has made most of the profits over the last three years on operations and some on selling away old airplanes,. The company is always selling away old airplanes so that will continue to bring in money since we replace old airplanes with new ones. That is where the money will really roll in. They have to get rid of old ones and replace them with new airplanes. That is a massive stream of money that will come in even without any growth. The money is there, we as pilots just need to make them share it at a much higher point. All of this information about the money coming in has been supplied by the company at one time or another over the last couple of years. It is all in either the Berkshire financial statements, company distributed emails, or it was told to us by senior management in company recurrent. I can understand the furloughed pilots not knowing the info from company emails and management meetings, but those still on property have had access to this info whether they got it in class themselves or on the union message board. The company has just done a very good job of glossing it over and in other instances just plain lying to us to try to influence negotiations. I fully believe they can easily pay up huge and I intend to make them.
brokeflyer
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once they stop wasting it on stupid decisions, the money will be there. But after all they're management, they cant help being stupid.
NetjetsFalcon
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Nope-it peaks at 10/250. 15 is 150 and 20 is 100. That, they might consider.
BentOver
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That right there is a problem I see...
The most junior Captains on a Encore/Phenom doing the 7/7 getting $250K... What will that require the 20 year guys doing 18 day on the Falcon require? Just off the top of my head it's gotta be closer to $300K??
No way the company just hands that over without significant concessions in the rest of the contract.. Which according to some here ain't gonna happen... So that pretty much leaves a really lengthy negotiation, medation, cooling off etc etc etc....
No body has answered what they think they could give up to get $250K+... And people are out of touch if they think the answer is nothing... It's just how it is in contract negotiations..
I'm all for max pay, but I don't see a majority of comfortable NJA pilots burning the house down at this point. It isn't 2005...
gunfyter
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Haven't you read Frederic Bastiat or Henry Hazlitt?
That is what is seen; you need to look at what is not seen
Remember ... passage of the 2005 CBA (that the company couldn't afford) resulted in record profit on the heels of losses!
The 2005 CBA was simply a more productive CBA for the company than the 1998... So will be the next CBA ... you have to look for that which is not seen.
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Haven't you read Frederic Bastiat or Henry Hazlitt?
That is what is seen; you need to look at what is not seen
Remember ... passage of the 2005 CBA (that the company couldn't afford) resulted in record profit on the heels of losses!
The 2005 CBA was simply a more productive CBA for the company than the 1998... So will be the next CBA ... you have to look for that which is not seen.
Go back to the economy and Wall Street and overall consumer sentiment in 2005. It was party time all over again. Look at what's happening in the US and world right now. Good luck, but you're in new territory. Warren knows this.
gunfyter
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I am just messing with Gret ...
CA1900
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No, it's not. $250,000 is about $208,000 in 2005 currency.Inflation is a bitch, which is all the more reason we need large gains to make any meaningful improvement to our wages.
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