10/250

gutshotdraw

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As the Section 6 negotiations at NetJets are just getting going, one contract proposal that seems to be gathering a lot of support is the notion of a 10 year, 7-7 schedule PIC having a base wage of $250,000 and extrapolating the rest of the pay scale from that point.

Now, before anybody jumps to any conclusions, lets agree on a few things.

Few would argue that, in many ways, a fractional pilot has WAY more duties to perform every day than a typical airline pilot. For example, on a typical day, duties include: Crew ground transportation coordinator, fuel and aircraft service supervisor, aircaft maintenance status inspector, passenger and crew catering expeditor, passenger baggage handler, aircraft security officer, cabin safety briefer, cabin customer service representative, company screw-up apologizer, aviation weather evaluator, cockpit decision maker and flight control operator, passenger ground transportation procurer, cabin cleaner and re-stocker, FBO lounge appreciator, professional airline passenger, and, if there's time, wiped-out beer drinker.

I also think most would agree that the fractional segment is its own, unique brand of flying and a direct salary comparison against major airline, regional airline, or traditional corporate is problematic.

Obviously, there are many other important contract sections that will affect total compensation and quality of life. But for the sake of this discussion, let's stick with the basic premise of 10/250.

So, here's my question for the peanut gallery:

Is the 10/250 proposal

A) An admirable starting point for negotiations that will ultimately be negotiated downward by a substantial amount? Or;

B) A realistic bottom-line benchmark that can be achieved with the appropriate "education" of the EMT by the pilot group? Or;

C) Sheer fantasy.

Discuss. And thanks for keeping the name-calling to a minimum.
 

rettofly

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As the Section 6 negotiations at NetJets are just getting going, one contract proposal that seems to be gathering a lot of support is the notion of a 10 year, 7-7 schedule PIC having a base wage of $250,000 and extrapolating the rest of the pay scale from that point.

Now, before anybody jumps to any conclusions, lets agree on a few things.

Few would argue that, in many ways, a fractional pilot has WAY more duties to perform every day than a typical airline pilot. For example, on a typical day, duties include: Crew ground transportation coordinator, fuel and aircraft service supervisor, aircaft maintenance status inspector, passenger and crew catering expeditor, passenger baggage handler, aircraft security officer, cabin safety briefer, cabin customer service representative, company screw-up apologizer, aviation weather evaluator, cockpit decision maker and flight control operator, passenger ground transportation procurer, cabin cleaner and re-stocker, FBO lounge appreciator, professional airline passenger, and, if there's time, wiped-out beer drinker.

I also think most would agree that the fractional segment is its own, unique brand of flying and a direct salary comparison against major airline, regional airline, or traditional corporate is problematic.

Obviously, there are many other important contract sections that will affect total compensation and quality of life. But for the sake of this discussion, let's stick with the basic premise of 10/250.

So, here's my question for the peanut gallery:

Is the 10/250 proposal

A) An admirable starting point for negotiations that will ultimately be negotiated downward by a substantial amount? Or;

B) A realistic bottom-line benchmark that can be achieved with the appropriate "education" of the EMT by the pilot group? Or;

C) Sheer fantasy.

Discuss. And thanks for keeping the name-calling to a minimum.
Name calling, schmame calling.

The only 10/250 I know is the required call-out on the descent. :p
 

gutshotdraw

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Name calling, schmame calling.

The only 10/250 I know is the required call-out on the descent. :p
Hahaha! Nice. Except you know we never did that callout in our fleet and they are eliminating the call for the fleets that did in the new AOM's, right?

Wow. Contributed to my own thread derailment within three posts...
 

Blueridgeflyer

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As the Section 6 negotiations at NetJets are just getting going, one contract proposal that seems to be gathering a lot of support is the notion of a 10 year, 7-7 schedule PIC having a base wage of $250,000 and extrapolating the rest of the pay scale from that point.

Now, before anybody jumps to any conclusions, lets agree on a few things.

Few would argue that, in many ways, a fractional pilot has WAY more duties to perform every day than a typical airline pilot. For example, on a typical day, duties include: Crew ground transportation coordinator, fuel and aircraft service supervisor, aircaft maintenance status inspector, passenger and crew catering expeditor, passenger baggage handler, aircraft security officer, cabin safety briefer, cabin customer service representative, company screw-up apologizer, aviation weather evaluator, cockpit decision maker and flight control operator, passenger ground transportation procurer, cabin cleaner and re-stocker, FBO lounge appreciator, professional airline passenger, and, if there's time, wiped-out beer drinker.

I also think most would agree that the fractional segment is its own, unique brand of flying and a direct salary comparison against major airline, regional airline, or traditional corporate is problematic.

Obviously, there are many other important contract sections that will affect total compensation and quality of life. But for the sake of this discussion, let's stick with the basic premise of 10/250.

So, here's my question for the peanut gallery:

Is the 10/250 proposal

A) An admirable starting point for negotiations that will ultimately be negotiated downward by a substantial amount? Or;

B) A realistic bottom-line benchmark that can be achieved with the appropriate "education" of the EMT by the pilot group? Or;

C) Sheer fantasy.

Discuss. And thanks for keeping the name-calling to a minimum.
The 250,000k is just for jumping on board and turning left AFAIK. Every one of the job intangibles which you listed will need to be compensated above and beyond the base pay. Furthermore there needs to be a real retirement plan that ensures that Netjets pilots can comfortably walk away from the industry that we gave our lives towards. Lastly, there will need to be more variety of schedules and more flexibility moving among them. BTW, I'm tired of doing more with less. They had better start recalls and augmenting the fleet before safety becomes compromised...if it hasn't already. This can be a great place to work while providing the owners with exceptional service. BRK would still maintain a fair return as part of their aviation portfolio. Win, win, win.
 

gutshotdraw

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The 250,000k is just for jumping on board and turning left AFAIK. Every one of the job intangibles which you listed will need to be compensated above and beyond the base pay. Furthermore there needs to be a real retirement plan that ensures that Netjets pilots can comfortably walk away from the industry that we gave our lives towards. Lastly, there will need to be more variety of schedules and more flexibility moving among them. BTW, I'm tired of doing more with less. They had better start recalls and augmenting the fleet before safety becomes compromised...if it hasn't already. This can be a great place to work while providing the owners with exceptional service. BRK would still maintain a fair return as part of their aviation portfolio. Win, win, win.
I agree with you on much of the above. Happy employees make happy customers make happy profit-taking stockholders.
 

rettofly

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Hahaha! Nice. Except you know we never did that callout in our fleet and they are eliminating the call for the fleets that did in the new AOM's, right?

Wow. Contributed to my own thread derailment within three posts...
Guess I've been retired too long. All I fly now is red, white and blue C182s down in the weeds. Callout not required.
 

el raton

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Hell of a idea!!!
You left out the airports fractional fly to that the airlines don't. Some of them are really no fun at all.
 

billybob

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I fall into the a/b group. You have to start someplace and that is as good as any. We are worth more than the guy that turn left and that's it but I think I need more on the beer drinking part of the job :)

As a 495 fo I need a good reason to come back. I'm at the top of the scale why come back?

Something other than a 401k

A bump in $$$ would be nice but an A/B fund would be great. If we got a A/B/C fund of some sort it does not cost them big $$$ now but gives us something to build on down the road. The sum would be close to the 10/200 or 10/250.

Other than that I don't see a great reason not to go to a major and be a 5 year fo making the Same as lots of ca at Nja
 

BentOver

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Company wants what amounts to a 1% reduction in costs from the pilots. 10/250 gives the pilots a nearly 66% increase...

Although admirable, a phenom 7/7 guy is gonna have a tough time winning over the company on $250K a year to work half a month..

Unfortunately this career is still somewhat based on the size of a/c determining pay. And when the average phenom/400 pilot makes around $60-75k, I don't see the company ever signing off on the proposed numbers or anything even close.
 

G4dude

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Company wants what amounts to a 1% reduction in costs from the pilots. 10/250 gives the pilots a nearly 66% increase...

Although admirable, a phenom 7/7 guy is gonna have a tough time winning over the company on $250K a year to work half a month..

Unfortunately this career is still somewhat based on the size of a/c determining pay. And when the average phenom/400 pilot makes around $60-75k, I don't see the company ever signing off on the proposed numbers or anything even close.
I agree, and I don't see how NJA could compete with other companies with 10/250, as much as I would like the money.
 

Blueridgeflyer

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Unfortunately this career is still somewhat based on the size of a/c determining pay. And when the average phenom/400 pilot makes around $60-75k, I don't see the company ever signing off on the proposed numbers or anything even close.
Perhaps in the airline business or straight corporate world this statement might carry some validity. There isn't an operator in today's aviation marketplace that comes close to fulfilling a NJA pilots job description especially when you consider the breadth of the operation. With company profits approaching 1Bil USD Netjets management is going to have a particularly difficult time convincing the pilot group why 10/250 isn't justified. Section 27 , while important, means very little without the other enhancements to scheduling and retirement. I don't mind some good old fashion hard work, but I need to be compensated fairly for my experience and additional responsibilities. Netjets can satisfy its obligations to its stakeholder employees, customers and BRK. This need not get contentious although signs are that it will.
 

msculley6905

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Long time lurker, first time poster...it's always intriguing to see how the pilot group feels about things.

Now, before anybody jumps to any conclusions, lets agree on a few things.

Few would argue that, in many ways, a fractional pilot has WAY more duties to perform every day than a typical airline pilot. For example, on a typical day, duties include: Crew ground transportation coordinator, fuel and aircraft service supervisor, aircaft maintenance status inspector, passenger and crew catering expeditor, passenger baggage handler, aircraft security officer, cabin safety briefer, cabin customer service representative, company screw-up apologizer, aviation weather evaluator, cockpit decision maker and flight control operator, passenger ground transportation procurer, cabin cleaner and re-stocker, FBO lounge appreciator, professional airline passenger, and, if there's time, wiped-out beer drinker.


So, here's my question for the peanut gallery:

Is the 10/250 proposal

A) An admirable starting point for negotiations that will ultimately be negotiated downward by a substantial amount? Or;

B) A realistic bottom-line benchmark that can be achieved with the appropriate "education" of the EMT by the pilot group? Or;

C) Sheer fantasy.

Discuss. And thanks for keeping the name-calling to a minimum.
Weren't all of those job descriptions laid out for you upon hiring? I'm sure they're not new duties that you feel have been added to your job descriptions since RTS left, and therefore deserve additional compensation. Right? Right?!?!

Each answer has it's own possibility of course

A- most likely IMO, and that's usually how negotiations go, right? each party starts at polar opposites and generally negotiate towards the middle.

B- Sure, but kiss everything goodbye outside of base salary.

C- I'm sure this is the feeling among non-pilot types. making $250k after 10 years of anything outside of sports/medicine/law, etc. is fantasy to many. if pilots get 70% raises, what about everyone else?
 

dudemize

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A.

Seeing how a current 10 yr NJA Capt on the 7/7 makes $119,254 (base), I think it is highly unlikely that a 110% raise will be achieved during this bargaining cycle.

I'm not saying that NJ pilots are not worth that, but if a raise that large were able to be secured you can bet that other areas of the contract, such as scope and work rules, would be gutted. There is always give and take. I would prefer a more modest raise (including COLA provisions) and significant improvements in work rules, scope language, and more schedule options.

To be clear, more power to the Union if they can secure that sort of raise along with all the other improvements that are needed.
 

billybob

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Where do we go then?

There are no 10 year captains at Nja. Ok a few. There are lots of 15 year captains. Soon lots of 20,25,30 year captains and if I ever get called back lots of 30 year FOs. If I work till some guys do 40 years!!! There is no pay scale for a guy that has worked at Nja past the 15 year mark or so.

A bump in pay is going to happen!

What we need is a real retirement for our brothers out there so not a single guy needs to work past 65

We are a young group and if we don't work on this now we will be sad angry old men with a 401k that gets rapped if things go south and gone 18 days a month

Time to make this a place to stay and reward those that do
 

fischman

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As the Section 6 negotiations at NetJets are just getting going, one contract proposal that seems to be gathering a lot of support is the notion of a 10 year, 7-7 schedule PIC having a base wage of $250,000 and extrapolating the rest of the pay scale from that point.

Now, before anybody jumps to any conclusions, lets agree on a few things.

Few would argue that, in many ways, a fractional pilot has WAY more duties to perform every day than a typical airline pilot. For example, on a typical day, duties include: Crew ground transportation coordinator, fuel and aircraft service supervisor, aircaft maintenance status inspector, passenger and crew catering expeditor, passenger baggage handler, aircraft security officer, cabin safety briefer, cabin customer service representative, company screw-up apologizer, aviation weather evaluator, cockpit decision maker and flight control operator, passenger ground transportation procurer, cabin cleaner and re-stocker, FBO lounge appreciator, professional airline passenger, and, if there's time, wiped-out beer drinker.

I also think most would agree that the fractional segment is its own, unique brand of flying and a direct salary comparison against major airline, regional airline, or traditional corporate is problematic.

Obviously, there are many other important contract sections that will affect total compensation and quality of life. But for the sake of this discussion, let's stick with the basic premise of 10/250.

So, here's my question for the peanut gallery:

Is the 10/250 proposal

A) An admirable starting point for negotiations that will ultimately be negotiated downward by a substantial amount? Or;

B) A realistic bottom-line benchmark that can be achieved with the appropriate "education" of the EMT by the pilot group? Or;

C) Sheer fantasy.

Discuss. And thanks for keeping the name-calling to a minimum.
Gut,

The answer is "B".

The company posted a $223 million profit for 2012 AND paid down $500 million in debt. These numbers aren't secret. They are in the SEC filing.

Oh yeah, the 95.6% owner approval rating for the pilots is THE LOWEST it has ever been.

In other words, we are awesome. The company has made a poop ton of money on operations alone, and we are selling the poop out of the Phenoms and Globals. Wait to see what happens when the Challengers show up. Mr. Buffet won't know what to do with all the money.

10/$250 is the bottom line, not the starting point. 10/$249,999 is a NO VOTE.

So, let's hear some of the common excuses...

"There's NO WAY you'll get paid $250,000 to fly a CE560. NBAA rates are $140,000 max."

OK. How much does a Part 91 CE560 driver fly a year? 200 hours? 250 hours? for $140,000? OK. I flew 630 hours last year for $120,000. So hour to hour, dollar to dollar, a 200 hour pilot at $140,00 would equate to $420,000 worth of flight. Even if the guy flew 300 hours a year, it would equate to more than $280,000 for the amount I have been flying.

"The owners will never support that kind of salary."

Really? Why would the owners even need to notice a difference? Why would the company even have to charge the owners more? Did you see the INSANE amount of money we made? Did you see the amount of debt we paid off? SWA guys make that kind of coin and the company still manged to post a $73 million profit. Oh yeah, they have a larger seniority list too. Berkshire will just have to get their money a little slower.

How many Travelodge's does the 91 guy stay in?

How many crappy D8b's does he eat?

How many times does he even GET A CHANCE to workout? Every day? The only way I can fit in a workout is if I call in fatigued.

I helped subsidize NetJets Europe with the crap salary we made before 2005. I am not going to subsidize China.

So yeah. I deserve the 10/$250. I work hard. I work safely. The owners LOVE me. The company can EASILY afford it (re: $223 million profit. $500 million in debt. Making that money on operations alone-new planes selling well).

The only reason we won't get that money is if we say we aren't worth it. I am.
 
Last edited:

fischman

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A.

Seeing how a current 10 yr NJA Capt on the 7/7 makes $119,254 (base), I think it is highly unlikely that a 110% raise will be achieved during this bargaining cycle.

I'm not saying that NJ pilots are not worth that, but if a raise that large were able to be secured you can bet that other areas of the contract, such as scope and work rules, would be gutted. There is always give and take. I would prefer a more modest raise (including COLA provisions) and significant improvements in work rules, scope language, and more schedule options.

To be clear, more power to the Union if they can secure that sort of raise along with all the other improvements that are needed.
Remember, we don't get COLA. It isn't a 110% raise due to inflation. The only reason it won't happen is because we are too stupid to vote yes for $150,000.
 

fischman

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Long time lurker, first time poster...it's always intriguing to see how the pilot group feels about things.



Weren't all of those job descriptions laid out for you upon hiring? I'm sure they're not new duties that you feel have been added to your job descriptions since RTS left, and therefore deserve additional compensation. Right? Right?!?!

Each answer has it's own possibility of course

A- most likely IMO, and that's usually how negotiations go, right? each party starts at polar opposites and generally negotiate towards the middle.

B- Sure, but kiss everything goodbye outside of base salary.

C- I'm sure this is the feeling among non-pilot types. making $250k after 10 years of anything outside of sports/medicine/law, etc. is fantasy to many. if pilots get 70% raises, what about everyone else?
How's the job in management working out for ya? Be sure to thank us for the raise when we get it for you.
 
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