Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

10/250

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Register   Log in
If you have $200 million in operating profit (which is suspect), how are you going to increase compensation north of $200 million without creating a loss?

The company needs profits to reinvest in the business and to pay shareholders a return on their investment.
 
gret said:
If you have $200 million in operating profit (which is suspect), how are you going to increase compensation north of $200 million without creating a loss?

The company needs profits to reinvest in the business and to pay shareholders a return on their investment.
Click to expand...

Gret

Much of that operational profit was deployed to pay off greater than 1B in secured BRK debt. I think it's been fairly well established and accepted that Netjets will soon be profitable to the tune of >800 million net. You are intelligent enough to determine the source of capital.
 
Blueridgeflyer said:
Gret

Much of that operational profit was deployed to pay off greater than 1B in secured BRK debt. I think it's been fairly well established and accepted that Netjets will soon be profitable to the tune of >800 million net. You are intelligent enough to determine the source of capital.
Click to expand...

If you're able to get it up to $800 million in operating profit...you deserve whatever you ask for. Just can't see it happening.

Just to set the record straight...paying off debt doesn't mean it came from operating earnings. Selling assets (i.e. aircraft) is the method most companies use when they have to downsize. The debt was created with buying assets...and it is reduced by selling them.
 
Debt repayments don't flow thru the income statement to compute operating profit. Repayment of debt is a balance sheet entry.

Cash flow comes from many sources such as selling assets, collecting receivables, delaying vendor payments, etc....and operating profit plus depreciation and other non cash charges.

In NetJets case, most of the cash came from selling aircraft that they had to buy back from owners. The debt was incurred to meet the contractual obligations to the owners and when NetJets sold the aircraft, they took the proceeds to repay the debt.
 
gret said:
Debt repayments don't flow thru the income statement to compute operating profit. Repayment of debt is a balance sheet entry.

Cash flow comes from many sources such as selling assets, collecting receivables, delaying vendor payments, etc....and operating profit plus depreciation and other non cash charges.

In NetJets case, most of the cash came from selling aircraft that they had to buy back from owners. The debt was incurred to meet the contractual obligations to the owners and when NetJets sold the aircraft, they took the proceeds to repay the debt.
Click to expand...

Makes sense, but just one problem.... how does selling 12 aircraft last year at deflated used aircraft prices equate to $800 million???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newkem
Say what?

Oh, same goes for an owner. No owner is irreplaceable - there will be others.


Please tell me Newkem doesn't work for NJA?


FROM THE COMMENT LOOKS LIKE HE IS IN SALES.
 
NJAowner said:
Say what?

Oh, same goes for an owner. No owner is irreplaceable - there will be others.

We are all replaceable -- owners too. However, NJ has had its "sign out" for "hiring" new owners and the line is not very long.
Click to expand...

Honest question here NJAowner. I have no idea what goes on with NJ anymore, but it seems you bash (tactfully at least) management and NJ in general every time these threads come about. Does management enlighten the owners as to how sales are going and the day to day status of operations? You mention your discussions with other owners as your source of info. Just curious where you come up with "the line is not very long"?

As some of the other 495 outcasts have stated, we are banned from the big boy page, so If you are actually an owner, it would be interesting to hear your reasoning. Bash away........
 
gret said:
If you're able to get it up to $800 million in operating profit...you deserve whatever you ask for. Just can't see it happening.

Just to set the record straight...paying off debt doesn't mean it came from operating earnings. Selling assets (i.e. aircraft) is the method most companies use when they have to downsize. The debt was created with buying assets...and it is reduced by selling them.
Click to expand...

This number has been, shall we say, well vetted. I have it on pretty good authority that the company sales metric is doing better than expected without getting into specifics. The EMT is in a big hurry to push this CBA through which should be very telling for the casual observer. We will certainly do our honest best to make the case for higher compensation. As one NJA owner recently told us post flight "you guys are the glue that keeps the operation together. They'd better treat you well this go around." People are beginning to pay attention.
 
I admit all of my facts are anecdotal, but the reports from all of the various companies as to number of owners, fleet size, etc., seem to support them.

I say "the line is not very long" because while I do not know all cusomters or prosepctive customers, I do not know a single person who has either bought a new share at NJA or migtrated from another major provider to NJA in the past few years. I do perosnally know about 50+ NJA owners/former owners who have either completely exited NJA or substantially reduced their NJA shares and have replaced their NJA flying with another major provider. And most of these changes were service based (not pilots), not all economically motivated.

I am critical of NJA management since they took an organization that was truly the epitome of customer service with unbelievable marketshare and pricing power and destroyed it -- however they still seem to think it is 2007. And the once very cooperative and responsive dialogue with its owners has been eliminated and owners are now treated with contempt and like they are idiots. I think it is helpful for the pilots to know how things really are from the customer side and not just the rosy pictures delivered by management.
 
Last edited:
NJAowner said:
I admit all of my facts are anecdotal, but the reports from all of the various companies as to number of owners, fleet size, etc., seem to support them.

I say "the line is not very long" because while I do not know all cusomters or prosepctive customers, I do not know a single person who has either bought a new share at NJA or migtrated from another major provider to NJA in the past few years. I do perosnally know about 50+ NJA owners/former owners who have either completely exited NJA or substantially reduced their NJA shares and have replaced their NJA flying with another major provider. And most of these changes were service based (not pilots), not all economically motivated.

I am critical of NJA management since they took an organization that was truly the epitome of customer service with unbelievable marketshare and pricing power and destroyed it -- however they still seem to think it is 2007. And the once very cooperative and responsive dialogue with its owners has been eliminated and owners are now treated with contempt and like they are idiots. I think it is helpful for the pilots to know how things really are from the customer side and not just the rosy pictures delivered by management.
Click to expand...

A prominent lovable person within the flight operations likes to say "this is what keeps me up at night." I have recently washed through CMH and made it abundantly clear that we neither have the staffing or airframes to meet current demand based on personal observation. I am very concerned about brand erosion as are others. Our owners deserve better...as do the rank and file within Columbus and on the flight line. As part of my briefing, I make it a point to ask owners what Netjets can do to make their experience better. A majority of them are surprisingly satisfied....which is good on face value, but disconnected from my perception of how thin the operation is stretched. But protracted adversarial negotiations with Dispatchers, Flight Attendants and Pilots do not make for happy motivated employees.
 
Here's my guess...
Anyone that believes this 10/250 idea is real has been punked!

No one can believe their own press enough to think they "deserve" that much for so little, except maybe Bieber.
 
A majority of them are surprisingly satisfied....which is good on face value,

All owners I know a very satisfied with the pilots. I think many of them will not complain to the pilots about problems and issues the owners are having with operations. My guess is all newcomers to private aviation are ecstatic (as we all once were). However, longer owners of NJ shares see the service as inferior to what it once was. It is all about expectations -- when these are incredibly great and responsive (a 100 on a scale), getting a mere 96 while still great is a step down. The real test of owners' sentiment is where their private aviation dollars are going -- and the "net flow" of these dollars is not into NJ. I have also pointed out before how various departments at NJ can "play" with their numbers to make their department look better and management then uses the same numbers to show how wonderful things are -- but so far from reality.

The old NJ culture was do whatever it takes to get an owner where they expect to be on time or as close to it. That is no longer the culture. I have had quite a number of flights (some in the past year, and this has happened to others I know) where operations decides it is better to give the owner the contractual credit for a late flight (capped at 2 hours in the last few years of contracts -- but it did not used to be capped) than actually bring in a recovery aircraft (which may be larger) or use sell off. While that may save NJ $$, it does not make for happy owners. This is especially true as sales uses the "depth" of the NJ and EJM fleets for recovery purposes as one of the major reasons to use NJ and not a competitor.
 
NJAowner, we had similar issues early last decade, especially in the summer of 2005. Rapid growth and a contentious labor/management relationship were a bad combination. We are beginning to see the same, and we are doing more with 100 fewer aircraft and 500 fewer pilots.

The ebbs and flows continue, and we will get over it-eventually. Please remember one very important thing. The vast majority of pilots will do what it takes to make your purchase pleasurable. What you don't see prior to wheels up would astound you. Additionally, the current EMT will be long gone way before we are. Your continued support will contribute to that end.
 
jetlag7 said:
THE STORY SO FAR.....

fischman believes he is worth a raise....

imacdog is angry with fishman for wanting a raise....

THE END
Click to expand...

I think "amused" would be a better descriptor for Fisch wanting a more than 100% raise. Not "A" raise, as you stated. "A" raise, as I have stated, is in order for NJA pilots. Seems you guys aren't bright enough to get that raise, if you're so incapable of reading comprehension. :)
 
imacdog said:
I think "amused" would be a better descriptor for Fisch wanting a more than 100% raise. Not "A" raise, as you stated. "A" raise, as I have stated, is in order for NJA pilots. Seems you guys aren't bright enough to get that raise, if you're so incapable of reading comprehension. :)
Click to expand...

Petty and insulting.... soooo classy...
 
G4dude said:
Imacdog is correct. Would we want a raise that is too much? If it makrs NJA noncompetitive? His point is spot on.
Click to expand...

Again... What competition?

Sales is making the company uncompetitive. Not the pilots.
 
This is kind of a pointless argument

On one side are the pilots who are in the trenches being overworked and yes underpaid.. But doing the rah rah " max pay til the last day or burn this MF down" cheerleading..

On the other are guys on the outside who are trying to figure out how NJASAP plans to nearly double the salary...( without taking a concession on any other portion of the contract) during a time of severely reduced a/c and with pilots still on furlough..

We all know the company is not just gonna cough up pay increases..... And we all know that no negotiation is one sided, so the two sides will meet somewhere between the two desires....

Like I said, pointless......, when the negotiators deem a acceptable agreement is reached they will present it for vote.. There will be the guys who vote NO just on principle, and the will be those who are too scared to vote NO... Then there will be those who actually become informed and knowledgable about what is in the TA, and make an informed decision.. ( the realists)

The company is not gonna get their desire to reduce pilot costs, and the Pilots are not gonna get $250K without giving up a lot in other sections....

Every negotiation goes through the same steps, we hear the same rah rah cheerleading over and over, and in the end sometimes it's a win sometimes not.... But no group is ever 100% satisfied...

Same story different company...NJa is no different, it was a good company to work for, but not that much different than any other company...

No dog left in the fight, but still follow NJA closely.. I do have a number in mind that I would deem acceptable... I personally believe the major airline captains, who make the $250K type money, should be the highest paid....

Btw I was at Comair over a decade ago through F.Butrells hair cut party, so as you can imagine I do know the shenanigans management will attempt... I got the t-shirt
 
Last edited:
NJAowner said:
A majority of them are surprisingly satisfied....which is good on face value,

All owners I know a very satisfied with the pilots. I think many of them will not complain to the pilots about problems and issues the owners are having with operations. My guess is all newcomers to private aviation are ecstatic (as we all once were). However, longer owners of NJ shares see the service as inferior to what it once was. It is all about expectations -- when these are incredibly great and responsive (a 100 on a scale), getting a mere 96 while still great is a step down. The real test of owners' sentiment is where their private aviation dollars are going -- and the "net flow" of these dollars is not into NJ. I have also pointed out before how various departments at NJ can "play" with their numbers to make their department look better and management then uses the same numbers to show how wonderful things are -- but so far from reality.

The old NJ culture was do whatever it takes to get an owner where they expect to be on time or as close to it. That is no longer the culture. I have had quite a number of flights (some in the past year, and this has happened to others I know) where operations decides it is better to give the owner the contractual credit for a late flight (capped at 2 hours in the last few years of contracts -- but it did not used to be capped) than actually bring in a recovery aircraft (which may be larger) or use sell off. While that may save NJ $$, it does not make for happy owners. This is especially true as sales uses the "depth" of the NJ and EJM fleets for recovery purposes as one of the major reasons to use NJ and not a competitor.
Click to expand...

NJA Owner,

We appreciate your business and your concerns should be addressed. We would be so appreciative and grateful if you would write a letter to Warren Buffet explaining your frustration along with other owner friends of yours. We also take notice of the culture change and it is not for the better. I believe that if Mr. Buffet knew what is really going on behind the scenes, he would make a drastic change for the better.

Warrens philosophy has always been safety first, and give our owners the best
of the best. He even states, quoted by Richard Santulli, "Safety first, I don't care what it costs."

I would like to share with you that as an aviator for netjets, there are times that I worry about paying my bills. Do you realize that on a 7 on 7 off schedule, I gross after 8 years of service, less than $80,000 per year. I have been flying since I was 15 years old. I went to college, earned a bachelors degree, went to flight school, paid $25,000 for it. I worked flight instructing for a year, flew cargo for 2 years. I have worked flying professionally, mostly corporate, for more than fifteen years. Friends of mine have a nine to five job making much more money and they get to see their families every day. We do not. We are away from our families in a strange bed for half of the year. We miss birthdays, mothers day, fathers day, thanksgivings, christmas', easters, halloweens, school plays etc..
We are not complaining, but pointing out the facts. We are highly competent, and our average new hire far exceeds the airline minimum hours.

Aren't we worth top pay for our experience and skill set? Would you prefer to have a low time pilot with less experience flying you and your family? Personally, I wouldn't if given the choice. However, I have no choice but to fly on low cost carriers because of my meager wages. I would be infuriated if I were you to know that your pilots may be in the cockpit worrying about bills. Peace of mind equals safety, period....

I would encourage you to write a letter for CHANGE.... I appreciate your sentiment for our pilot group and we appreciate your business. Afterall, you pay our salary, and for that, we thank you... I would hope that the company would not pass on our wage increase to you. You deserve the "best of the best" and we hope that you will be patient with all of us during this negotaiating time. We will try to provide you with exceptional service, even though our current leadership is lacking in leading by example.

Please let us know if you will be willing to write such a letter because your one voice is more powerful than the entirety of our pilot workforce. Thank you kindly...
 
Last edited:
Your request to NJAOwner should make every swinging d!ck cringe. Real men don't beg, cry, or complain...

Warren has already been sought out for support of his workers...see link below. He wouldn't help out coal miners making $52K a year..so I doubt he will jump at the chance to pay pilots making $80K and up more.

If he were to answer it should/would be..."sure, let's give them more money...how much do you, as a client, want to kick in to help these poor overworked boys out?"

Buffett considers NetJets one of his worst investments ever in case you didn't know.
 
gret,

First and foremost, I totally understand your anger and frustration! You are PISSED and rightly so! Let me guess why you are angry. Shall we? I can not speak for you but I will tell you why I am angry. I am pissed that I was under the delusion in my teens and twenties that a pilots salary would be equivalent to an attorney or surgeon. I am pissed that my kids cry when I leave for a seven day tour. I am pissed that my wife has to hold down the fort and work while I am gone because my income alone is not sustainable. I am pissed that I have to present a happy face to our owners and pretend that "life is good."I am pissed that we have fellow brothers and sisters, STILL FURLOUGHED while we sell off and piss off owners. I am pissed that our brand of luxury may be destroyed because of poor leadership. I am pissed that we have PISSED OFF OWNERS!!!!!!!

I read the article you suggested. I feel your pain brother and I am in the same fight along side you. You may conclude that I am not a real man. May be, you are right.... I cry, I beg, and I do complain...

However, my family means the WORLD to me. If I need to cry, beg, borrow and be a donkeys behind to insure my girls futures, it is what I will do. Please do not cringe because I am imploring the help of an NJA owner. He came to flightinfo.com and joined because he is most likely interested in aviation. Why not ask for help in our time of need????

I, personally love making people happy and go out of my way to deliver exceptional service. If I am not paid accordingly, I will take my superior set of skills and service elsewhere and I hope you will do the same gret....
 
Last edited:
hopalong said:
I, personally love making people happy and go out of my way to deliver exceptional service. If I am not paid accordingly, I will take my superior set of skills and service elsewhere and I hope you will do the same gret....
Click to expand...

+1... I really enjoy the type of flying we do and the ability to make things happen for our owners. Unfortunately when the call comes I will not think twice about moving on. "It is what it is."
 
jonjuan said:
Of course you're netjets, however, many of your pilots come from the regionals. There could be hiring announced tomorrow and thousands of qualified regional pilots, many of whom wont be hired by the major airlines or don't desire to work there, would line up to apply. Heck, most would still do so if the pay were 75% of what it currently is.
Unfortunately, management understands this. It's called leverage.
Click to expand...

That's the weakest hand of leverage possible.

This operation will studder or suffer the worst possible fate playing that hand.

Headlines. Bad ones.

That's no game to play or win.
 
luckydog said:
Here's my guess...
Anyone that believes this 10/250 idea is real has been punked!

No one can believe their own press enough to think they "deserve" that much for so little, except maybe Bieber.
Click to expand...

Don't mistake your lack of self worth for mine please.


And thank you.
 
FLYLOW22 said:
Don't mistake your lack of self worth for mine please.


And thank you.
Click to expand...

I always figured you had loads of self worth...:rolleyes:


Was that a misplaced modifier or a dangling participle? Doc Bayless would be mortified....

I keed, I keed
 
Last edited:

Share this page

Latest posts

Latest resources

Latest media

Carbon Cub FX-3 Shenandoah Valley
Carbon Cub at Kittyhawk
FX-3 in the backcountry
IFR Panel in a Carbon Cub FX-3
Cub-Provo-UT-c.jpg
Back
Top Bottom