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imacdog said:
As I said earlier Hopalong, the pay will be determined by the rest of the sections. You might just look at the pay section when voting, but I don't. And yes, I know the job you do. I've done it. Your contract and job description has not changed since the furlough. So there's more flying, fine, but you aren't doing stuff like managing the aircraft, working with the FAA directly to get various approvals, getting your own slots during ski season, etc. You aren't the only hard-working pilots out there.
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No one said we were. We just said what we're worth. You think you're worth less than that. Fine. Don't drag us down with you.
 
Also hop, since you don't believe NJA has an industry leading contract, then who does in the frac world?
 
imacdog said:
As I said earlier Hopalong, the pay will be determined by the rest of the sections. You might just look at the pay section when voting, but I don't. And yes, I know the job you do. I've done it. Your contract and job description has not changed since the furlough. So there's more flying, fine, but you aren't doing stuff like managing the aircraft, working with the FAA directly to get various approvals, getting your own slots during ski season, etc. You aren't the only hard-working pilots out there.
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Fair enough, that you would like to see the rest of the sections improved as well.
We are pushing for that as well. Lets make this conversation interesting. What percentage of a raise do you think we are worth? Everyone else please chime in as well. Lets talk numbers people.
 
fischman said:
No one said we were. We just said what we're worth. You think you're worth less than that. Fine. Don't drag us down with you.
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Hey you can wish in one hand and poop in the other and see what gets filled first. Just consider me a realist.
 
imacdog said:
Hey you can wish in one hand and poop in the other and see what gets filled first. Just consider me a realist.
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Naw. I consider you a pessimist.
 
THE STORY SO FAR.....

fischman believes he is worth a raise....

imacdog is angry with fishman for wanting a raise....

THE END
 
imacdog said:
Also hop, since you don't believe NJA has an industry leading contract, then who does in the frac world?
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Have you kept up on inflation? The purchasing power of a dollar today is a lot less than in the past years...

Why do you think because we have a current industry leading contract in the fractional world, that we shouldn't demand for an even better one???
It is this defeatist attitude that will be our demise until you wake up and DEMAND your worth!
 
fischman said:
Like I said, be sure to say thank you when we raise the bar. Many of these arguments were said in 2004. We managed to get the impossible then too.
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2004, In the most perfect private aviation economy ever. Those days are long one, kemosabe.
 
jonjuan said:
2004, In the most perfect private aviation economy ever. Those days are long one, kemosabe.
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Nope. They are ahead of us. Re-read "the perfect storm"
 
jonjuan said:
You are wrong. Read "Reality bites". No way WB coughs up more than 10%. Good luck.
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We shall see. Buckle up. It's going to be a long ride.
 
I think WB will cough up more than 10% if he wants NJA to continue flying. The 100% Fisch talks about would be awesome. The reality is we'll be lucky to see 30%.
 
There is the $$$ and there is retirement and scope.

Lets all remember WE are working together. Lets not piss on each other (falcon guys it's ok) lets work on some ideas and getting me back to work.
 
imacdog said:
I believe Fisch is also leaving out that the average part 91 pilot, while flying less hours than an equivalent NJA pilot, takes on management, dispatch, flight coordination, and other ancillary duties that NJA pilots do not. Compared with the average part 91 pilots, NJA pilots are actually closer to "walking in and turning left" than not.
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We aren't 91.

We aren't airline.

We're NetJets.


There are no new arguments here now presented than in 2004 as to why or why NJA pilots will not be given solid/real/hefty pay increases. Don't mistake lack of message board willingness for lack of resolve, however.

This company needs a safe and competent workforce to move it's Owners around.

That comes with a price.

Many airlines will be hiring and with right seat pay meeting or exceeding whatNJA pilots can make in the left seat currently, it's just good business for many pilots at NJA to consider making a move to equal pay with the assurance of more in the future rather than stay at a place with no future except low wages.


No Brainer. Let the exodus begin.

With the opening offer from the company being a 5% paycut... I can't read this playing out any other way for management.

No pilots to hire and pilots leaving... not good.
 
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They managed healthy raises in 2005 ans 2007 while making huge profites on sales alone. We were hemorrhaging money in ops without a care in the world. Now we're making record profits on ops alone, paying off north of $1 BILLION in debt, and just starting to see an uptic in sales.

Healthy raises are not a pipe dream. Consider our owners pay annual increases in their management fees, ostensibly for increases in salaries, we need a large increase just to realize those fees. Consider the benefit of both sales and ops revenue, the sky is the limit.
 
Please don't think you are irreplaceable in your job. Everyone is replaceable -- the greatest doctors, lawyers, NFL quarterbacks, founders of fractional companies, the President of the United States. Life goes on, business carries on, after a few days the irreplaceable employee is forgotten about. Those who think they are irreplaceable usually end up unemployed. This doe snot mean settle for little -- but just don't think you are totally irreplaceable.
 
You guys are still failing to realize our peer group. It extends past the 91K world into the 135 arena as well. This last economic downturn changed it all to include XOJet, SunJet, CloudJet, ToolJet, CoolJet, etc. The owners set our peer group by their travel habits and who they use for their flying.

I know the company is making record profits. We should expect to see a large percentage increase. No way we get 100% without getting released and striking. The company will never agree to it, and arbitrator will never grant it. It's going to come down to what the pilot group is willing to walk out for.
 
GF is correct. But the big issues with most unions is making sure the union leadership understands and represents the interests of the union members --not just leadership.
 
FLYLOW22 said:
We aren't 91.

We aren't airline.

We're NetJets.

No pilots to hire and pilots leaving... not good.
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Of course you're netjets, however, many of your pilots come from the regionals. There could be hiring announced tomorrow and thousands of qualified regional pilots, many of whom wont be hired by the major airlines or don't desire to work there, would line up to apply. Heck, most would still do so if the pay were 75% of what it currently is.
Unfortunately, management understands this. It's called leverage.
 
Newkem said:
Say what?

Oh, same goes for an owner. No owner is irreplaceable - there will be others.

:beer:
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That might be the most ignorant statement I've ever read on Flightinfo....
jonjuan said:
Of course you're netjets, however, many of your pilots come from the regionals. There could be hiring announced tomorrow and thousands of qualified regional pilots, many of whom wont be hired by the major airlines or don't desire to work there, would line up to apply. Heck, most would still do so if the pay were 75% of what it currently is.
Unfortunately, management understands this. It's called leverage.
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Long recall list to go through first. You're right that the list will be long to get in the door at first. Problem is it costs a lot of money if you don't keep those pilots on the property for X number of years. Bigger problem is crappy places to work get outed fairly quick in this industry. Notice the thread about Lakes canceling flights due to staffing? We're all drawing from the same pool now.
 
Say what?

Oh, same goes for an owner. No owner is irreplaceable - there will be others.

We are all replaceable -- owners too. However, NJ has had its "sign out" for "hiring" new owners and the line is not very long.
 
NJAowner said:
Say what?

Oh, same goes for an owner. No owner is irreplaceable - there will be others.

We are all replaceable -- owners too. However, NJ has had its "sign out" for "hiring" new owners and the line is not very long.
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Spot on....

OPECJET...agree with your assessment 100%. Do people understand why the fleet shrunk so drastically...its call lack of clients!

It will take years of tremendous effort to get back to the ownership levels of years ago...
 
gunfyter said:
What I don't like about this thread is there is no reason to negotiate with message board people ... let the union reps negotiate with the company reps. If you don't like the product they present ... vote no.
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No kidding right??? Surprising how long it's been going.......
 
This whole thread is pretty comical








With all this talk you'd think the fleet was at 600 a/c and not 400( down 100+) and then there's the talk about being short on pilots and qualified applicants while 450+ sit on the sidelines.... Business is better than 2010, but I have serious concerns about some of your information sources if you think it's back to 2007 levels.
 
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I'm having a difficult time understanding the pessimism in the amount of gains that NJASAP members could realize in this bargaining season. The operational profits of today and the net profits associated with an increased owner base will easily support north of $200 million in augmented compensation. It would also be consistent with Netjets Six Core Operating Principles. We at Netjets like to think of ourselves as pioneers in our corner of aviation. Those in other aviation venues should be reaching for the Pom Poms to cheer us along on the mission. Certainly other pilot groups will use whatever we achieve to benchmark against. How about a little professional camaraderie? The profession in general has been slowly clawing back from the effects of bankruptcies and oversupply. We want to do our part to bolster compensation for this noble form of vocation. 10/250!
 

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