10/250

[hopalong]

Gret,

what do you fly?

 

[gunfyter]

Intern out of medical school...

Now you have a good comparison Doctor -- Pilot.

The odds of success are small ... in Adam's Smith's lottery.

Thats why the compensation for those who are successful must be great.

Similarly the odds of success are small for professional athletes/ movie stars ... thats why their pay is even greater.

I think we may be viewing career risks differently…chasing druggies, getting shot at by looney tunes, or rushing into burning buildings for $65K/year is what I was referring to

Yes you are viewing career risk differently... I am referring to the risk of success/failure in the career... as explained in the large quote from Wealth of Nations I posted earlier.

But getting fired at by small arms, manpad missiles, etc is a little scary too. And if you've never been a flight instructor ...

I sent my son to college ... he's got a BS in mathematics now ... I wish he'd become a Teacher (or a nurse)... his odds of success are near 100%.

But no... he wants to be a pilot. So on top of $80K in student loans ... lets add on another $80K in flight training and then YEARS AND YEARS of below minimum wage while flight instructing so you can then qualify to work for $20K a year at a regional.

Nobody would make the financial sacrifices people make to become pilots ... to become any of the other professions you mentioned. Aviation is a disease.

 

[jetlag7]

....I think we may be viewing career risks differently…chasing druggies, getting shot at by looney tunes, or rushing into burning buildings for $65K/year is what I was referring to....

THE DEADLIEST JOBS in the WORLD

1. Commercial fishermen - 121.2 deaths per 100,000 workers
2. Loggers - 102.4 deaths per 100,000 workers
3. PILOTS - 57.0 deaths per 100,000 workers

Although dangerous jobs, firemen and police officers don't even make the top ten.

Walk up to any professional pilot and ask them if they personally know someone who has died pursuing this career -- I have a feeling you'll be surprised at the number they tell you....

 

[gunfyter]

THE DEADLIEST JOBS in the WORLD

1. Commercial fishermen - 121.2 deaths per 100,000 workers
2. Loggers - 102.4 deaths per 100,000 workers
3. PILOTS - 57.0 deaths per 100,000 workers

Although dangerous jobs, firemen and police officers don't even make the top ten.

Walk up to any professional pilot and ask them if they personally know someone who has died pursuing this career -- I have a feeling you'll be surprised at the number they tell you....

I know dozens.

I have been thinking about this some more:

I have had 3 fires and several engine failures (one while crossing the Atlantic) in my 30 years of flying.

And let me tell you -- you really haven't lived till you've been fired on by Tank Rounds.

 

[gunfyter]

Point? Will an arbitrator care?

My disagreement with Gret is not about that. It's about what makes pilots different than other professions using several points from Adam Smith on the wages of labor. We ARE something special....

As far as an arbitrator ... we must make our case for the best compensation improvements possible and raise the bar for everyone.

But I like that Gret brought up doctors ...

"Don't cheap out on your surgeon OR pilot "
-- Fox business news anchor

 

[gret]

Intern out of medical school...

Now you have a good comparison Doctor -- Pilot.

The odds of success are small ... in Adam's Smith's lottery.

Thats why the compensation for those who are successful must be great.

Similarly the odds of success are small for professional athletes/ movie stars ... thats why their pay is even greater.



Yes you are viewing career risk differently... I am referring to the risk of success/failure in the career... as explained in the large quote from Wealth of Nations I posted earlier.

But getting fired at by small arms, manpad missiles, etc is a little scary too. And if you've never been a flight instructor ...

I sent my son to college ... he's got a BS in mathematics now ... I wish he'd become a Teacher (or a nurse)... his odds of success are near 100%.

But no... he wants to be a pilot. So on top of $80K in student loans ... lets add on another $80K in flight training and then YEARS AND YEARS of below minimum wage while flight instructing so you can then qualify to work for $20K a year at a regional.

Nobody would make the financial sacrifices people make to become pilots ... to become any of the other professions you mentioned. Aviation is a disease.

Good luck to gunfyter junior. If he is good at math, get him into engineering...we need 'em and they make the big bucks! Convince him that aeronautical engineering is just like being pilot.

Don't misunderstand me, I know all to well that the effort and financial commitments to become a pilot are huge and I have tremendous respect for those that have paid their dues. It is too bad the economics of the industry can't support the compensation expectations at the higher end of the scale.

 

[gret]

THE DEADLIEST JOBS in the WORLD

1. Commercial fishermen - 121.2 deaths per 100,000 workers
2. Loggers - 102.4 deaths per 100,000 workers
3. PILOTS - 57.0 deaths per 100,000 workers

Although dangerous jobs, firemen and police officers don't even make the top ten.

Walk up to any professional pilot and ask them if they personally know someone who has died pursuing this career -- I have a feeling you'll be surprised at the number they tell you....

Saw that headline a couple of weeks ago and said gosh...can that be right? The public doesn't want to hear that their captain is in a high risk occupation when flying is the safest mode of travel available.

There must be more to the numbers and here it is-


http://money.cnn.com/gallery/pf/2012/09/20/most-dangerous-jobs/3.html

 

[jetlag7]

Saw that headline a couple of weeks ago and said gosh...can that be right? The public doesn't want to hear that their captain is in a high risk occupation when flying is the safest mode of travel available.

There must be more to the numbers and here it is-


http://money.cnn.com/gallery/pf/2012/09/20/most-dangerous-jobs/3.html

Yes, there were a high number of fatalities in Alaska last year that pushed us into the top 3, but Piloting has always been in the Top 10 for most dangerous jobs - and always ranked above firefighters and police officers in my near 20-year career. (I know because I have friends in those professions and this topic always seems to pop up every year or so..)

Why do you think air travel is still the safest mode of transportation?

It's because the pilots you are entrusting your life with are where they are by surviving years of the proverbial "trial by fire" that killed many of our colleagues working less glamorous jobs flying freight, flight instructing, medevac, combat, fire suppression, and yes, Alaskan bush flying.

The flying public is paying for the life-saving experience their Captain and First Officer have built over careers in one of the DEADLIEST professions on earth that ensures they never have to bat an eyelash over personal safety or that of their loved ones.

Yes, I agree the flying public does not want to hear their Captain is in "a high-risk occupation", and thanks to the experience, training, and qualifications of their flight crew - they never have to.

 

[rajflyboy]

Are we playing football or conducting business?

To win in business you have to be smart, level headed, and sometimes an outstanding diplomat….which have not been traits demonstrated by several in this thread.

we are talking about different issues here. You cant win unless you try to win.

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

Don't misunderstand me, I know all to well that the effort and financial commitments to become a pilot are huge and I have tremendous respect for those that have paid their dues. It is too bad the economics of the industry can't support the compensation expectations at the higher end of the scale.

This is dogmatic and doesn't past the smell test gret. You simply have no idea what you are talking about. And I used to respect your postings here. Why the crusade against the profession? What's in it for you?

 

[gret]

Not against the profession at all, and don't understand why people think so. Being good in any position is to be admired and one should be proud of the accomplishments...life is hard.

The problem is with the few immature bozos who claim they are better than everyone else and deserve compensation that doesn't have any foundation in reality...and whose irresponsible actions may jeopardize the jobs of others. One example would be the repeated claim that pilots alone make NetJets work...the world that I come from finds this offensive and disrespectful to the many A&P's, schedulers, ground personnel, accountants, flight attendants, and others who take pride in their work and contribute greatly to the company. Another example would be begging an owner to write a letter to WB for a raise because they don't make as much as their neighbor. Every single NetJet employee, regardless of their job, should find this embarrassing. This nonsense is a black mark against the profession, makes everyone look bad, and reinforces the perception that pilots are a greedy bunch of egomaniacs.

If you have to tell the world how great you are, you are not great and look foolish.

 

[gunfyter]

We'll see what the economics will support.

This CBA could have been extended 3 years at a simple CPI COLA adjustment but it was not.

That tells me someone thinks they can do better than that on the other side. I don't think the economics are going to support that thinking.

Let's see who is closer to being correct.

 

[Praetorian]

Ahhh... But the union buster is only doing his job. The scab is the lowest form of humanity. He is the one who selfishly steals off your children's plate to fatten himself. He is the one who is too ignorant to know that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. He is the stabber of backs.

Milton wrote that the inner gates of Hell are saved for betrayers and mutineers. THAT is a scab.

Although I completely agree with your characterization of the scab, your contention that the union buster is only “doing his job”, reminds me a lot of the Nuremberg defense. Eichmann said, “I did not persecute Jews with avidity and passion. That is what the government did. . . . At that time obedience was demanded…”. This defense has, of course, been almost universally repudiated and Eichmann was hanged.

Does the union buster follow the orders or does he give them? I don’t think there is even a real rationalization or a conceivable defense for those that give the orders.

Martin Levitt says, “Union busting is a field populated by bullies and built on deceit. A campaign against a union is an assault on individuals and a war on the truth.”

Let’s not give them a pass, on this forum, just because they’re being paid to “do a job” on us.

 

[gret]

Lets hope for the best. It would help a lot if the economy would show some signs of sustain growth, which it hasn't since 2008.

 

[fischman]

Not against the profession at all, and don't understand why people think so. Being good in any position is to be admired and one should be proud of the accomplishments...life is hard.

The problem is with the few immature bozos who claim they are better than everyone else and deserve compensation that doesn't have any foundation in reality...and whose irresponsible actions may jeopardize the jobs of others. One example would be the repeated claim that pilots alone make NetJets work...the world that I come from finds this offensive and disrespectful to the many A&P's, schedulers, ground personnel, accountants, flight attendants, and others who take pride in their work and contribute greatly to the company. Another example would be begging an owner to write a letter to WB for a raise because they don't make as much as their neighbor. Every single NetJet employee, regardless of their job, should find this embarrassing. This nonsense is a black mark against the profession, makes everyone look bad, and reinforces the perception that pilots are a greedy bunch of egomaniacs.

If you have to tell the world how great you are, you are not great and look foolish.

I not sure anyone has made the claims that the pilots are better than schedulers, flight attendants, or mechanics? We absolutely wouldn't be there without them. I did notice that you left the dispatchers out of your list however. Interesting... What we did claim is that we are the face of the company, the tip of the spear, the ones who pick up the mess others make, the only ones who are accountable when things go wrong, and the ones who make things happen without the owners knowing there was a problem, DAILY... We are easily with the MINIMUM of 10/$250.

If you aren't against the profession you have a hypocritical way of showing it, Mr. Manager.