10/250

[hopalong]

Gret,

what do you fly?

 

[gunfyter]

Intern out of medical school...

Now you have a good comparison Doctor -- Pilot.

The odds of success are small ... in Adam's Smith's lottery.

Thats why the compensation for those who are successful must be great.

Similarly the odds of success are small for professional athletes/ movie stars ... thats why their pay is even greater.

I think we may be viewing career risks differently…chasing druggies, getting shot at by looney tunes, or rushing into burning buildings for $65K/year is what I was referring to

Yes you are viewing career risk differently... I am referring to the risk of success/failure in the career... as explained in the large quote from Wealth of Nations I posted earlier.

But getting fired at by small arms, manpad missiles, etc is a little scary too. And if you've never been a flight instructor ...

I sent my son to college ... he's got a BS in mathematics now ... I wish he'd become a Teacher (or a nurse)... his odds of success are near 100%.

But no... he wants to be a pilot. So on top of $80K in student loans ... lets add on another $80K in flight training and then YEARS AND YEARS of below minimum wage while flight instructing so you can then qualify to work for $20K a year at a regional.

Nobody would make the financial sacrifices people make to become pilots ... to become any of the other professions you mentioned. Aviation is a disease.

 

[jetlag7]

....I think we may be viewing career risks differently…chasing druggies, getting shot at by looney tunes, or rushing into burning buildings for $65K/year is what I was referring to....

THE DEADLIEST JOBS in the WORLD

1. Commercial fishermen - 121.2 deaths per 100,000 workers
2. Loggers - 102.4 deaths per 100,000 workers
3. PILOTS - 57.0 deaths per 100,000 workers

Although dangerous jobs, firemen and police officers don't even make the top ten.

Walk up to any professional pilot and ask them if they personally know someone who has died pursuing this career -- I have a feeling you'll be surprised at the number they tell you....

 

[gunfyter]

THE DEADLIEST JOBS in the WORLD

1. Commercial fishermen - 121.2 deaths per 100,000 workers
2. Loggers - 102.4 deaths per 100,000 workers
3. PILOTS - 57.0 deaths per 100,000 workers

Although dangerous jobs, firemen and police officers don't even make the top ten.

Walk up to any professional pilot and ask them if they personally know someone who has died pursuing this career -- I have a feeling you'll be surprised at the number they tell you....

I know dozens.

I have been thinking about this some more:

I have had 3 fires and several engine failures (one while crossing the Atlantic) in my 30 years of flying.

And let me tell you -- you really haven't lived till you've been fired on by Tank Rounds.

 

[gunfyter]

Point? Will an arbitrator care?

My disagreement with Gret is not about that. It's about what makes pilots different than other professions using several points from Adam Smith on the wages of labor. We ARE something special....

As far as an arbitrator ... we must make our case for the best compensation improvements possible and raise the bar for everyone.

But I like that Gret brought up doctors ...

"Don't cheap out on your surgeon OR pilot "
-- Fox business news anchor

 

[gret]

Intern out of medical school...

Now you have a good comparison Doctor -- Pilot.

The odds of success are small ... in Adam's Smith's lottery.

Thats why the compensation for those who are successful must be great.

Similarly the odds of success are small for professional athletes/ movie stars ... thats why their pay is even greater.



Yes you are viewing career risk differently... I am referring to the risk of success/failure in the career... as explained in the large quote from Wealth of Nations I posted earlier.

But getting fired at by small arms, manpad missiles, etc is a little scary too. And if you've never been a flight instructor ...

I sent my son to college ... he's got a BS in mathematics now ... I wish he'd become a Teacher (or a nurse)... his odds of success are near 100%.

But no... he wants to be a pilot. So on top of $80K in student loans ... lets add on another $80K in flight training and then YEARS AND YEARS of below minimum wage while flight instructing so you can then qualify to work for $20K a year at a regional.

Nobody would make the financial sacrifices people make to become pilots ... to become any of the other professions you mentioned. Aviation is a disease.

Good luck to gunfyter junior. If he is good at math, get him into engineering...we need 'em and they make the big bucks! Convince him that aeronautical engineering is just like being pilot.

Don't misunderstand me, I know all to well that the effort and financial commitments to become a pilot are huge and I have tremendous respect for those that have paid their dues. It is too bad the economics of the industry can't support the compensation expectations at the higher end of the scale.

 

[gret]

THE DEADLIEST JOBS in the WORLD

1. Commercial fishermen - 121.2 deaths per 100,000 workers
2. Loggers - 102.4 deaths per 100,000 workers
3. PILOTS - 57.0 deaths per 100,000 workers

Although dangerous jobs, firemen and police officers don't even make the top ten.

Walk up to any professional pilot and ask them if they personally know someone who has died pursuing this career -- I have a feeling you'll be surprised at the number they tell you....

Saw that headline a couple of weeks ago and said gosh...can that be right? The public doesn't want to hear that their captain is in a high risk occupation when flying is the safest mode of travel available.

There must be more to the numbers and here it is-


http://money.cnn.com/gallery/pf/2012/09/20/most-dangerous-jobs/3.html

 

[jetlag7]

Saw that headline a couple of weeks ago and said gosh...can that be right? The public doesn't want to hear that their captain is in a high risk occupation when flying is the safest mode of travel available.

There must be more to the numbers and here it is-


http://money.cnn.com/gallery/pf/2012/09/20/most-dangerous-jobs/3.html

Yes, there were a high number of fatalities in Alaska last year that pushed us into the top 3, but Piloting has always been in the Top 10 for most dangerous jobs - and always ranked above firefighters and police officers in my near 20-year career. (I know because I have friends in those professions and this topic always seems to pop up every year or so..)

Why do you think air travel is still the safest mode of transportation?

It's because the pilots you are entrusting your life with are where they are by surviving years of the proverbial "trial by fire" that killed many of our colleagues working less glamorous jobs flying freight, flight instructing, medevac, combat, fire suppression, and yes, Alaskan bush flying.

The flying public is paying for the life-saving experience their Captain and First Officer have built over careers in one of the DEADLIEST professions on earth that ensures they never have to bat an eyelash over personal safety or that of their loved ones.

Yes, I agree the flying public does not want to hear their Captain is in "a high-risk occupation", and thanks to the experience, training, and qualifications of their flight crew - they never have to.

 

[rajflyboy]

Are we playing football or conducting business?

To win in business you have to be smart, level headed, and sometimes an outstanding diplomat….which have not been traits demonstrated by several in this thread.

we are talking about different issues here. You cant win unless you try to win.

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

Don't misunderstand me, I know all to well that the effort and financial commitments to become a pilot are huge and I have tremendous respect for those that have paid their dues. It is too bad the economics of the industry can't support the compensation expectations at the higher end of the scale.

This is dogmatic and doesn't past the smell test gret. You simply have no idea what you are talking about. And I used to respect your postings here. Why the crusade against the profession? What's in it for you?

 

[gret]

Not against the profession at all, and don't understand why people think so. Being good in any position is to be admired and one should be proud of the accomplishments...life is hard.

The problem is with the few immature bozos who claim they are better than everyone else and deserve compensation that doesn't have any foundation in reality...and whose irresponsible actions may jeopardize the jobs of others. One example would be the repeated claim that pilots alone make NetJets work...the world that I come from finds this offensive and disrespectful to the many A&P's, schedulers, ground personnel, accountants, flight attendants, and others who take pride in their work and contribute greatly to the company. Another example would be begging an owner to write a letter to WB for a raise because they don't make as much as their neighbor. Every single NetJet employee, regardless of their job, should find this embarrassing. This nonsense is a black mark against the profession, makes everyone look bad, and reinforces the perception that pilots are a greedy bunch of egomaniacs.

If you have to tell the world how great you are, you are not great and look foolish.

 

[gunfyter]

We'll see what the economics will support.

This CBA could have been extended 3 years at a simple CPI COLA adjustment but it was not.

That tells me someone thinks they can do better than that on the other side. I don't think the economics are going to support that thinking.

Let's see who is closer to being correct.

 

[Praetorian]

Ahhh... But the union buster is only doing his job. The scab is the lowest form of humanity. He is the one who selfishly steals off your children's plate to fatten himself. He is the one who is too ignorant to know that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. He is the stabber of backs.

Milton wrote that the inner gates of Hell are saved for betrayers and mutineers. THAT is a scab.

Although I completely agree with your characterization of the scab, your contention that the union buster is only “doing his job”, reminds me a lot of the Nuremberg defense. Eichmann said, “I did not persecute Jews with avidity and passion. That is what the government did. . . . At that time obedience was demanded…”. This defense has, of course, been almost universally repudiated and Eichmann was hanged.

Does the union buster follow the orders or does he give them? I don’t think there is even a real rationalization or a conceivable defense for those that give the orders.

Martin Levitt says, “Union busting is a field populated by bullies and built on deceit. A campaign against a union is an assault on individuals and a war on the truth.”

Let’s not give them a pass, on this forum, just because they’re being paid to “do a job” on us.

 

[gret]

Lets hope for the best. It would help a lot if the economy would show some signs of sustain growth, which it hasn't since 2008.

 

[fischman]

Not against the profession at all, and don't understand why people think so. Being good in any position is to be admired and one should be proud of the accomplishments...life is hard.

The problem is with the few immature bozos who claim they are better than everyone else and deserve compensation that doesn't have any foundation in reality...and whose irresponsible actions may jeopardize the jobs of others. One example would be the repeated claim that pilots alone make NetJets work...the world that I come from finds this offensive and disrespectful to the many A&P's, schedulers, ground personnel, accountants, flight attendants, and others who take pride in their work and contribute greatly to the company. Another example would be begging an owner to write a letter to WB for a raise because they don't make as much as their neighbor. Every single NetJet employee, regardless of their job, should find this embarrassing. This nonsense is a black mark against the profession, makes everyone look bad, and reinforces the perception that pilots are a greedy bunch of egomaniacs.

If you have to tell the world how great you are, you are not great and look foolish.

I not sure anyone has made the claims that the pilots are better than schedulers, flight attendants, or mechanics? We absolutely wouldn't be there without them. I did notice that you left the dispatchers out of your list however. Interesting... What we did claim is that we are the face of the company, the tip of the spear, the ones who pick up the mess others make, the only ones who are accountable when things go wrong, and the ones who make things happen without the owners knowing there was a problem, DAILY... We are easily with the MINIMUM of 10/$250.

If you aren't against the profession you have a hypocritical way of showing it, Mr. Manager.

 

[gutshotdraw]

THE DEADLIEST JOBS in the WORLD

1. Commercial fishermen - 121.2 deaths per 100,000 workers
2. Loggers - 102.4 deaths per 100,000 workers
3. PILOTS - 57.0 deaths per 100,000 workers

Although dangerous jobs, firemen and police officers don't even make the top ten.

Walk up to any professional pilot and ask them if they personally know someone who has died pursuing this career -- I have a feeling you'll be surprised at the number they tell you....

My sad, personal number in this category is now up to 10, ALL civilian.

But Gunfyter's distinction is an important one. It's not just the physical risk associated with the profession that determines the compensation. It's the economic, intellectual, and personal roadblocks that constantly peel off individuals from the potential supply of a given skill.

Low supply + high demand = higher compensation. At least it does when the invisible hand is allowed to function and the black hand of government doesn't skew the equation. Like the stupidity of the minimum wage. But that's another discussion...

 

[gunfyter]

Gutshot ...
?

I think YIP was right ... the pilot shortage is finally here.

 

[gret]

Article from CNBC today...not meant to flame debate...just an interesting take on things

Gen Y managers perceived as entitled, need polish

…”Entitled workers, those who feel they are owed things from their organization and that their excellence is a given, are less likely to lead teams effectively and advocate for subordinates.

A 2010 study by Paul Harvey, then an assistant professor of management at the University of New Hampshire, found that entitled employees are more likely to feel frustrated on the job and to lash out at colleagues.

"The frustration experienced by entitled workers appears to stem from perceived inequities in the rewards received by co-workers to whom psychologically entitled employees feel superior," Harvey said.”…

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100997634

 

[hopalong]

Get,

Again what do you do for a living? Are you a bartender? Are you a teacher? Are you a nurse? I am pretty sure that I can do all those jobs, since I have done some without any problem.
However, I doubt those same people could do my job, including you. You are the one who is ARROGANT, claiming that we are pathetic bozos. I have been nothing but transparent and respectful to you. That ends now! You are nothing but a piece of ********************, you troll WANNABEE PATHETIC MORON without a clue.

I will not engage you again because you do nothing but bring us down and your comparisons are illogical. GET A LIFE LOSER!!!!

 

[hopalong]

Anyway lets get back to the topic at hand.

10/250k

 

[gutshotdraw]

Gutshot ...
?

I think YIP was right ... the pilot shortage is finally here.

We can certainly hope he is.

Whether that shortage actually translates to higher compensation remains to be seen. Aviation has always seemed to be its own, strange vortex in the economic universe.

 

[gret]

Get,

Again what do you do for a living? Are you a bartender? Are you a teacher? Are you a nurse? I am pretty sure that I can do all those jobs, since I have done some without any problem.
However, I doubt those same people could do my job, including you. You are the one who is ARROGANT, claiming that we are pathetic bozos. I have been nothing but transparent and respectful to you. That ends now! You are nothing but a piece of ********************, you troll WANNABEE PATHETIC MORON without a clue.

I will not engage you again because you do nothing but bring us down and your comparisons are illogical. GET A LIFE LOSER!!!!

Noted and sorry for upsetting you...

I haven't done any of the jobs listed. For most of my career, I was an arrogant selfish SOB who thought he had the world by the tail until I was cut down to size...and rightly so because of a misplaced belief in my own importance.

In my time away from my current position, I mentor young people with their careers (aviation and other industries) who show promise and a willingness to learn from the mistakes I've made. Maybe I'm just a sap, but I find it rewarding and am overjoyed when another person succeeds...and that person takes their turn helping someone else.

Again, sorry you feel the way you do...BTW Topper was was of my favorite steeds when I was growing up.

 

[brokeflyer]

10/250 is easily affordable by NJA, they'll get it. They'll have to fight a little bit but it wont be that hard.

they deserve it.

 

[NJAowner]

Firstly, just about every worker on the planet, in every occupation thinks he is underpaid. Very, very few walk around saying they are overpaid.

Secondly, the connection between responsibility and remuneration is weak and strained. The President of the United States (the office not the man so keep politics out of it), has tremendous responsibility (that is an understatement) and gets paid $400,000 (NOTE to those argumentative types -- let's not start talking about the value of this or that or living in the white house. And Don't trust all statistics you read -- Death rate in office from assassinations alone is 4/44 or 9090 per 100,000 (much higher than commercial fisherman).

Thirdly, GF and others are correct in quoting Adam Smith and others -- it is about economics but much simpler than they quote. It is simple "supply and demand". The supply of pilots is quite huge (and most pilot unions have not done a good enough job to differentiate their pilots from others), the demand is low. One reason physicians get higher salaries is the AMA has been very successful in restricting the supply of doctors (BTW - some doctors in rural areas who are not specialist do not make nearly as much as you may expect). For athletes, there is only 1 Martin Brodeur and 1 Mark Sanchez (thankfully on the latter). AGain, about supply.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Firstly, just about every worker on the planet, in every occupation thinks he is underpaid. Very, very few walk around saying they are overpaid.

Secondly, the connection between responsibility and remuneration is weak and strained. The President of the United States (the office not the man so keep politics out of it), has tremendous responsibility (that is an understatement) and gets paid $400,000 (NOTE to those argumentative types -- let's not start talking about the value of this or that or living in the white house. And Don't trust all statistics you read -- Death rate in office from assassinations alone is 4/44 or 9090 per 100,000 (much higher than commercial fisherman).

Thirdly, GF and others are correct in quoting Adam Smith and others -- it is about economics but much simpler than they quote. It is simple "supply and demand". The supply of pilots is quite huge (and most pilot unions have not done a good enough job to differentiate their pilots from others), the demand is low. One reason physicians get higher salaries is the AMA has been very successful in restricting the supply of doctors (BTW - some doctors in rural areas who are not specialist do not make nearly as much as you may expect). For athletes, there is only 1 Martin Brodeur and 1 Mark Sanchez (thankfully on the latter). AGain, about supply.

And fourthly, and with all due respect, you are with often. We are here more. This isn't a clear and open channel for us to communicate so let me summarize by saying...

We wouldn't ask for it if we knew they couldn't afford it.

 

[gunfyter]

An interesting thread or two on the Regional section... with Indoc classes running and fewer than half invited showing up to training .... Signing bonuses.

I think the supply-side of the equation has stalled.

To get the flight experience required by Fracs (2500 hours) ... Why would someone go to the fracs when upgrades will be faster in larger planes and some are getting flow or interviews guaranteed to the Majors?

All thats needed now is an increase in business requiring pilot hiring at fracs and we'll see where that supply and demand curve meet. Everyone's pay will depend upon the ability to acquire and retain pilots.

 

[BentOver]

Dude NJA hasn't even called back a single furloughee... ( and so far they are well over a year behind)

Cart before horse don't ya think? NJa still has a lot of growth to go before all furloughees have a chance at recall

 

[GooseHZ]

Mean while back in CGF........good lord you NJA guys really really need to get over yourselves......do you have any idea how you guys sound? im hope you get your 10/250k.....but goodness you make yourselves look like a bunch of pricks.

 

[jtf]

I have never said I'm better than any other pilot. However, the pilots here at NetJets just happen to be in a position to force an incredible increase in pay and benefits if we get together and supply the leverage our negotiating committee needs. NetJets is making plenty of money to pay us and still make a healthy profit. That said, we will only get what we can negotiate and it doesn't really need to have anything to do with the supply of pilots. If enough pilots in this union are willing to make it happen and put the company in a position to either make us happy or shut it down, they would be quite foolish to kill the company just because they aren't willing to share the spoils. I'm just not sure we have enough guys and girls who are willing to push it.

 

[brokeflyer]

Mean while back in CGF........good lord you NJA guys really really need to get over yourselves......do you have any idea how you guys sound? im hope you get your 10/250k.....but goodness you make yourselves look like a bunch of pricks.

but netjets pilots are better....they deserve it.