To ALL UNITED pilots courtesy of ALL UAX carriers and their pilots

[CFIT]

I know if I were in a position to help effect the change that you want, I would delay and resist, simply based on your attitude and the ultimatum Letter. Many UAL pilots are commenting on the Letter and when Skywest comes up, they state that OO aren't even unionize and that they rejected ALPA.

Your statement has no merit, all of the other airlines that signed the letter are union, but of course you have to bring in ALPA to every discourse.

[quote\]Right or wrong, these are the realities that you are facing... based on in part by the choices you have made....[/quote]

Wrong again, these choices were made by UAL pilots, we all nknow if it was the other way it would be fixed immediately.

[quote\]In addition, what obligation or binding agreement does UAL or U-ALPA have to allow OO pilots priority on OO aircraft.[/quote]

They're SkyWest aircraft, the seats in back are regulated by UAL, NOT the jump seat.

[quote\]
Of course it makes common sense that OO pilots have j/s priority on their own airplane, but since Skywest has tied its dingy to the UAL monolith, it does come with certain conditions. ie Skywest serves UAL. OO flies where UAL says, when, what to put into its cargo bins, etc...

I do believe that OO pilots should have priority on their own jumpseats... but where is it binding or obligated. And how are the UAL pilots part of the equation? (I am not saying it does or doesn't, but asking the question... from there you state your case...)

It seems this is a OO to UAL managment issue.... not each individual OO pilot and UALPA. IN the meantime this is a PIC methodology.. not an ultimatum letter... Do you have Captains at Skywest or just "guys in the left seat?"[/quote]


Rez, pick a side and choose; either SkyWest gets priority on their own metal or you can chum up to your ALPA thugs and continue to have them kick pilots off of their own aircraft.

Pick one Rez, it's easy.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Interesting interpretation of one line of Rez's post...

Just as your opinions do not necessarily represent the opinions of the RJDC or the Republican Party, Rez's opinions are simply his own...attaching them to ALPA's stance on issues or saying they represent ALPA's elite is inaccurate.

I agree that the reaction that Rez was talking about could be seen as counter-productive. His intentions seem to be simply mentioning the reality of how UAL pilots will react to this letter. Could it be seen as childish? Sure...But he's simply stating what the UAX pilots who wrote this letter should have thought about as a potential consequence before they gambled their pilots commuting rights.

Pilots as a group get emotional, especially when they don't have all of the facts on an issue. Right or wrong, when a UAL pilot gets a letter that basically states "hi, we have a problem that you did not know about...you have 30 days to fix it, or else", he is most likely not going to respond well to the "or else".

Nobody seems to have an issue with the fact that there is a problem with the jumpseat system that needs to be fixed. The issue seems to be issuing ultimatums and using the jumpseat as a bargaining chip.

Stating that Rez thinks regional pilots are second class regional surfs is woefully ignorant since I'm guessing Rez has spent the majority of his career as a regional pilot

And now he is a United pilot...

Just imagine if you will what would have happened if the shoe was on the other foot....

Let's imagine that the UAX pilots cut a deal to put UAX pilots ahead of United pilots on United aircraft several years ago....What do you think the reaction would have been....I doubt the mainline pilots would have waited 2 years to place an ultimatum.

This would have never been accepted by the mainline pilots if it had been the other way around....

The double standard needs to end....

 

[JoeMerchant]

They do..........but the point was made..........

I'm out for the week now. Going to see Wall-E with the kids and then off to work early tomorrow.

I'm out too....back to the smoker....Ribs and beef brisket....

Don't you need to get working on that man cave? Pictures look good.....I want a tour....

 

[SaturnPilot]

And now he is a United pilot...

Just imagine if you will what would have happened if the shoe was on the other foot....

Let's imagine that the UAX pilots cut a deal to put UAX pilots ahead of United pilots on United aircraft several years ago....What do you think the reaction would have been....I doubt the mainline pilots would have waited 2 years to place an ultimatum.

This would have never been accepted by the mainline pilots if it had been the other way around....

The double standard needs to end....

Once again Joe, I'm not debating the issue that this needs to be fixed. I'm stating that the method should be seen as unacceptable.

I don't care if mainline pilots would have issued an ultimatum if the issue were reversed or not. I would disagree with that also. Are we all to begin threatening each other's jumpseats for every issue?

 

[CFIT]

Once again Joe, I'm not debating the issue that this needs to be fixed. I'm stating that the method should be seen as unacceptable.

I don't care if mainline pilots would have issued an ultimatum if the issue were reversed or not. I would disagree with that also. Are we all to begin threatening each other's jumpseats for every issue?

Saturn, UAL pilots have been asked to change this unfair practise for over 3 years.

Push has come to shove.

Again, fix the software and this all goes away.

 

[pipe]

And now he is a United pilot...

Just imagine if you will what would have happened if the shoe was on the other foot....

Let's imagine that the UAX pilots cut a deal to put UAX pilots ahead of United pilots on United aircraft several years ago....What do you think the reaction would have been....I doubt the mainline pilots would have waited 2 years to place an ultimatum.

This would have never been accepted by the mainline pilots if it had been the other way around....

The double standard needs to end....

The jobs at the express carrier exist at the pleasure of the mainline carrier. The mainline carrier really controls not only the seats in back, but the jumpseats, the driver's seats, etc.... That's the reality.

I know it kills you Joe, but you sound like the Air Traffic Controller that thinks airplanes exist so he'll have something to vector. You sound like the mechanic who thinks that airplanes exist so that he'll have something to work on.

The fact is that the RJ exists only to feed mainline. (See Indy Air).

PIPE

 

[ArcticFlier]

Mainline guys could have flown them (RJ's). They chose not to..........while we're talking facts.......

Now I'm really out.......

 

[CFIT]

The jobs at the express carrier exist at the pleasure of the mainline carrier. The mainline carrier really controls not only the seats in back, but the jumpseats, the driver's seats, etc.... That's the reality.

I know it kills you Joe, but you sound like the Air Traffic Controller that thinks airplanes exist so he'll have something to vector. You sound like the mechanic who thinks that airplanes exist so that he'll have something to work on.

The fact is that the RJ exists only to feed mainline. (See Indy Air).

PIPE

Ya, you're right, would you like the left seat too when you get furloughed?

 

[pipe]

Ya, you're right, would you like the left seat too when you get furloughed?

No. I am not interested. I never flew for the commuters in the first place because I felt the pay and work rules were ridiculous and I will not do so now.

If I can't win a basketball game, I don't ask for a chance to play in the Special Olympics. If I lose, I lose -- and it's done. I'll just move on.

PIPE

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Your statement has no merit, all of the other airlines that signed the letter are union, but of course you have to bring in ALPA to every discourse.

But we are not talking about other carriers are we? We are talking about OO pilots. And I am saying that UAL pilots recognize that you snubbed ALPA... and now you want something from them...

I get the impression that being non union is a one way street for you: IOW you want the benefits when it suits you, but when it doesn't then its not fair and not right...

Wrong again, these choices were made by UAL pilots, we all nknow if it was the other way it would be fixed immediately.

Because they have a union and know how to address the issues because they have been working with/fighting management for 70 years?

What choices by UAL pilots?

They're SkyWest aircraft, the seats in back are regulated by UAL, NOT the jump seat.

While I agree with that via common sense... tell me that is true.. Is it in your ASA? FARs? What enables OO to use Apollo which is controlled by UAL to determine j/s priority? Don't just tell me that OO j/s is controlled by its pilots. Tell us WHY!

IOW, if you control your jumpseat, then write your own computer code with your priority list..for the OO jumpseat. When pilots show up to j/s on OO then have the gate agent access your own in house program. And/or us PIC authority.

[quote\]
Of course it makes common sense that OO pilots have j/s priority on their own airplane, but since Skywest has tied its dingy to the UAL monolith, it does come with certain conditions. ie Skywest serves UAL. OO flies where UAL says, when, what to put into its cargo bins, etc...

I do believe that OO pilots should have priority on their own jumpseats... but where is it binding or obligated. And how are the UAL pilots part of the equation? (I am not saying it does or doesn't, but asking the question... from there you state your case...)

It seems this is a OO to UAL managment issue.... not each individual OO pilot and UALPA. IN the meantime this is a PIC methodology.. not an ultimatum letter... Do you have Captains at Skywest or just "guys in the left seat?"[/quote]

Rez, pick a side and choose; either SkyWest gets priority on their own metal or you can chum up to your ALPA thugs and continue to have them kick pilots off of their own aircraft.

Pick one Rez, it's easy.

I am really not in a position to pick anything...

It seems you have the problem that is unsolvable.. or you are dependant on other to solve your problem yet you lack the social skillset to convince them to be your advocate...

I don't have the long term SA on this... why are the UAL pilots obligated to help? Isn't this a OO/UAL management issue?

 

[waveflyer]

I'll just say that j/s's worked a LOT better when the PIC handled it. Gate agents have had way too much authority in this issue.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Once again Joe, I'm not debating the issue that this needs to be fixed. I'm stating that the method should be seen as unacceptable.

I don't care if mainline pilots would have issued an ultimatum if the issue were reversed or not. I would disagree with that also. Are we all to begin threatening each other's jumpseats for every issue?

Than FIX it....Prove that ALPA can actually act like a union....Is it capabale for ALPA to do the right thing?

 

[JoeMerchant]

The jobs at the express carrier exist at the pleasure of the mainline carrier. The mainline carrier really controls not only the seats in back, but the jumpseats, the driver's seats, etc.... That's the reality.

This is the attitude that prevails at the mainline and at ALPA national....Looks like war to me.....

Hey pipe....my job doesn't exist at your pleasure and you don't control $h!t...........

If this doesn't get fixed, I will start denying UAL jumpseaters also....

 

[JoeMerchant]

No. I am not interested. I never flew for the commuters in the first place because I felt the pay and work rules were ridiculous and I will not do so now.

If I can't win a basketball game, I don't ask for a chance to play in the Special Olympics. If I lose, I lose -- and it's done. I'll just move on.

PIPE

Who do you work for now?

 

[JoeMerchant]

But we are not talking about other carriers are we? We are talking about OO pilots. And I am saying that UAL pilots recognize that you snubbed ALPA... and now you want something from them...

I get the impression that being non union is a one way street for you: IOW you want the benefits when it suits you, but when it doesn't then its not fair and not right...

I don't have the long term SA on this... why are the UAL pilots obligated to help? Isn't this a OO/UAL management issue?

Rez....this letter was also signed by ALPA JSC and Teamsters JSC.....This isn't about being union or non-union...

This is exactly the reason Skywest didn't join ALPA in the first place....You ALPA cheerleaders defend ALPA's bad behavior and then blame the pilots that stand up to ALPA's bad behavior.....

Why do you United folks think you should have priority on UAX airplanes?

 

[strega7]

IOW, if you control your jumpseat, then write your own computer code with your priority list..for the OO jumpseat. When pilots show up to j/s on OO then have the gate agent access your own in house program. And/or us PIC authority.[/qoute]

I do control the use of the jumpseat on my aircraft. All the way up to denying an FAA inspector or Secret Service member if I think that I could justify it. We only use the Apollo computer right now to sort jumpseat requests because that has, for the most part, worked for everyone in past. Now because of a request from the UAL MEC to attain a "higher" than agreed to priority on a few UAX carriers, the other UAX pilots have been placed at a disadvantage on their own aircraft.

If this is not resovled by Aug 1st, it would be the easiest thing to take your suggestion and start a new standalone jumpseat procedure for UAX flights in the UAL system. Simply have the agent print an OMC card for everyone and send them all to the captain. Easy as pie! All pilots would be aware of this new program and would be on the "correct" footing while meeting the PIC. If the UAL guy can hold a non-rev seat in the back, great! If it's full, the Captain will decide who will ride up front.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Than FIX it....Prove that ALPA can actually act like a union....Is it capabale for ALPA to do the right thing?

Joe, I didn't think I'd actually have to say this...I am not really the UAL MEC Chairman. I cannot personally do anything what-so-ever to fix this situation. But, I admire your ridiculous attempt to once again blame ALPA national for a local problem between a few carriers (only 2 of which are in ALPA).

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe, I didn't think I'd actually have to say this...I am not really the UAL MEC Chairman. I cannot personally do anything what-so-ever to fix this situation. But, I admire your ridiculous attempt to once again blame ALPA national for a local problem between a few carriers (only 2 of which are in ALPA).

You said it needs to be fixed....The UAX pilots have been trying for years....Why hasn't it? What needs to be done? Would the mainline pilots stand being treated as second class citizens on their own airplanes?

I don't care who is ALPA and who isn't....but this independant group is showing more leadership than I have ever seen out of ALPA....

 

[SaturnPilot]

You said it needs to be fixed....The UAX pilots have been trying for years....Why hasn't it? What needs to be done?

I'll try to go back and take a look at my notes from the past two years of this argument that neither you nor I were parties of and let you know why this particular issue has not yet been fixed and what needs to be done from here in order to fix it. There's a lot of details in those notes from the conversations I have never had with the jumpseat coordinators of each airline, so it may take some time. I'll get back to you on that.

Would the mainline pilots stand being treated as second class citizens on their own airplanes?

again, not saying that ANYBODY should stand for this...perhaps you should go back and read my first post on this thread.

I don't care who is ALPA and who isn't....but this independant group is showing more leadership than I have ever seen out of ALPA....

One letter is more leadership than you have ever seen out of ALPA, huh? Does that include your terms in office as part of ALPA leadership?

 

[PCL_128]

I'll try to go back and take a look at my notes from the past two years of this argument that neither you nor I were parties of and let you know why this particular issue has not yet been fixed and what needs to be done from here in order to fix it. There's a lot of details in those notes from the conversations I have never had with the jumpseat coordinators of each airline, so it may take some time. I'll get back to you on that.

Now that's some beautiful use of sarcasm right there.

One letter is more leadership than you have ever seen out of ALPA, huh? Does that include your terms in office as part of ALPA leadership?

Ohhh, snap! Don't bother Joey with real leadership. He was too busy stealing meeting minutes and refusing to do his job when he was in office.