USAPA wins...Pilots lose

[av8tor76]

You'll notice that I stopped doing that after a very short time. I was pretty pissed off at the guy, and it was a juvenile response, much like the use of "alpo."

you're still a returd...

 

[Marko Ramius]

We've gotten the furlough longevity resolution passed at every UAL council. The MEC's buried it on their priority list. If you're involved with the union, you should know that.
You and I both know that the power is in the MEC seats. You also know that we aren't going to get any committee chairs until we have MEC seats. We've already got part of the 2172 in lower level union positions but they aren't going to advance to higher positions until we have a few MEC seats. Wait until the next election.

The irony for you of course is that much like Whiteford and the '78 crew and the 570, the 2172 are facing an uphill battle to attain those MEC seats until they are senior. I hope I am wrong bigtime on that, but looking at history and the sentiment of some of those currently in power you can see where I'm coming from. Btw, I hope you were posting from an internet hash cafe when you said that you trust Tilton & UA management more than ALPA. A lot of ill stuff has gone down in the 8 years since you started there from both the company and ALPA, but the one thing that has remained constant is that no union efforts good or bad can overwhelm management who has no interest in running the show to win. It's scary when you can say that Wolf(for a while at least) did more to position UA product in the marketplace than Tilton has even attempted.

 

[FR8mastr]

All I know is you AAA guys might want to make sure that you stay really far away from PHX. And if you are stupid enough to bid out here make sure you don't park your nice car in the parking lot.

I'm just being realistic.

typical tough guy, threatens a defenseless car.

 

[Andy]

I'm not really up on UAL ALPA politics. What exactly is the "2172?"

The furloughees.

 

[Andy]

The irony for you of course is that much like Whiteford and the '78 crew and the 570, the 2172 are facing an uphill battle to attain those MEC seats until they are senior. I hope I am wrong bigtime on that, but looking at history and the sentiment of some of those currently in power you can see where I'm coming from. Btw, I hope you were posting from an internet hash cafe when you said that you trust Tilton & UA management more than ALPA. A lot of ill stuff has gone down in the 8 years since you started there from both the company and ALPA, but the one thing that has remained constant is that no union efforts good or bad can overwhelm management who has no interest in running the show to win. It's scary when you can say that Wolf(for a while at least) did more to position UA product in the marketplace than Tilton has even attempted.

I shouldn't post when on pain medications (bad back).
It's not that I trust Tilton et al, it's just that I know they don't even bother to tell me it's raining when they pisssing down my back. I don't feel the same about the union. The age 65 crap merely put me over the edge.

While UALdriver has suggested that we seize the union, he knows that it cannot be done in short order, it takes time. We are a much bigger block than any other block of pilots, but have near zero say in matters since we don't have seats at the table.

As for the internet cafe, no, I was laid up on my couch. I guess I need to start using a mirror to check under my car or get a remote starter.

 

[Marko Ramius]

It's not that I trust Tilton et al, it's just that I know they don't even bother to tell me it's raining when they pisssing down my back. I don't feel the same about the union. The age 65 crap merely put me over the edge.

Understood and I agree on the Age 65 thing. What you said just stood out to me when you consider how poorly management has done things-the system survives because it has good positions at some excellent hubsites more than management's moves-you know the things the AAA East guys have always spouted about their system for years that hasn't played out nearly as well.

 

[Marko Ramius]

Just for PCL

The furloughees.

Andy gave you the quick version, here's the dirty one. The first 591 were furloughed at the end of Oct. 2001 along with the parking of the entire 727 and 737-291 fleets. About 24 of that group were furloughed in violation of the contracts no furlough provisions. Provisions that were written by the same guy who wrote the DAL contract language that was successfully grieved and some say the UAL language was in fact stronger and more detailed as far as outlining scenarios that didn't justify force majeure. Additionally the contract had language for minimum pilot numbers overall, minimum block hour numbers for mainline each year, minimum mainline pilot numbers to operate SJ's, and adjustments to those SJ numbers in the event of a UA pilot furlough.

Essentially, only about 567 probationary pilots could have been legally furloughed by the contract language and that should have resulted in no more SJ's above the 65 agreed to previously in the RJ LOA as well as recalls about a year or two later when retirements caught up with the minimum pilot number or the block hour limits. All of this stuff was covered by an expedited grievance process.

What did happen was that the expedited grievances were filed on both the non-probationary furloughs and the SJ issue. In Nov. 2001, UA ALPA surrendered on both counts. Officially, the grievances were held in abeyance to be heard at different time. The SJ's continued to flow in at rates that were in violation of the contract and UA ALPA failed to negotiate a deal to get their guys jobs with the Express carriers and those carriers unions looked the other way as well. The furloughees were first told that their grievances would have a better outcome with some distance from 9/11, then they were told that the grievances would be settled as part of concessionary deal to get a government loan. Meanwhile, another 253 hit the street in March of 2002. Then UA ALPA's first 'solution' hit the streets: longevity for furloughees but no recalls or $$$ for the contract violations, a reworking of the SJ limits to legitimize what they had already allowed, a dropping of the minimum block hour limits to less than was currently in service with no increases, and a dropping of the minimum pilot numbers that would push recalls off further, along with modest paycuts. All basically in exchange for Contract 2000 book rates being used for A fund pension calculations and agreeing to settle the outstanding grievances with the concessionary deal. This proposal never got a vote because the ATSB turned UA's first request down, but it was resurrected 4 mos. later as part of a last ditch effort with the ATSB prior to filling BK. The second proposal had bigger paycuts, the same stuff for SJ's, minimum pilots, and block hours, but inexplicably the longevity credit was dropped. The ATSB balked again and UA went into BK and the paycuts were quickly instituted but the rest of the stuff was essentially settled in a terrible concessionary deal in 2003. No longevity credit, nothing for grievances, and several 'geniuses' voted for their own furlough as another 1319 bodies flowed out the door. All along UA ALPA made excuses about the fact that they were willing to throw anything on the fire to save the A fund which was ultimately lost anyway in exchange for zip.

Long story? Yup, but it's not the one you'll hear around the offices in Herndon and it might help you further understand some of the frustration your hear out there from your ALPA brothers.

 

[ualdriver]

I'm not really up on UAL ALPA politics. What exactly is the "2172?"

UA furloughed 2172 guys during our last downturn. Some of them call their group "The 2172." They have their own internet forum, they do stuff like leave 2172 in the transponders between flights, they leave little 2172 stickers around ops and the cockpits, etc., stuff like that. We have a group from the strike of '85 who referred to themselves as "The 570" and I think they're trying to model their unity as the 570 group did and still do to this day.

Like I told Andy, I'd be thrilled if 1/2 of them even cared to participate in their Union. That would probably increase participation in Union activity by about 5 fold.

 

[TWA Dude]

Long story? Yup, but it's not the one you'll hear around the offices in Herndon and it might help you further understand some of the frustration your hear out there from your ALPA brothers.

I'm going to presume that you believe another union and/or a union with more balls wouldn't have given in as much. Looking around at all the concessionary contracts the industry has suffered since 2001 I wonder exactly how much less you think you could've lost.

Nobody seems to like their union when things are tough. Funny how that works.

 

[ualdriver]

I'm going to presume that you believe another union and/or a union with more balls wouldn't have given in as much. Looking around at all the concessionary contracts the industry has suffered since 2001 I wonder exactly how much less you think you could've lost.

Nobody seems to like their union when things are tough. Funny how that works.

And those statements sum up exactly the problem ALPA has to deal with concerning its membership!

When things are going great, ALPA is better than sliced bread. But when things get bad, the industry is in a downturn and/or bad things start to happen, it's ALPA's fault. Certainly ALPA makes errors, but the end result is going to be roughly the same. Guys get furloughed, take paycuts, get demoted and it's all ALPA's fault. It's never the JetBlue or Virgin America's guy fault for massively undercutting and putting downward pressure on wages and working for no retirement. It's never the economy. It's never overzealous management. It's just ALPA's fault. As if unions can wave a magic wand and make 100's of millions of dollars appear on an airlines' bottom line to cover the higher expense of Union wages and work rules, make Congressmen vote they way they want concerning Age 60, or make management a little more labor friendly in the bankruptcy proceedings.

Oh well....

 

[Jonny Sacko]

You are on crack now. How about age 65? Who was that? I guess you're already a captain, and figure, " ah what the he!! I'll have to make that choice later" What about the ENTIRE MAJORITY of ALPA members.Fckuing Oberstar sent an email saying he wouldn"t have changed his mind if ALPA hadn't joined the party. Remember the LARGEST group of unionized pilots on the planet, so go blow your ALPA diatribe right out your fckuing azz. I hope your arrogant ass gets parted up, and sold for scrap, lets watch your golden shower chunky friend fcuk you followed by your booo hoo then Go fcuk yourself, and take that fcuking chunky Prater with you. ALPA has done NOTHING for this industry, but destroy hard fought rules, squandered leverage away, and given the companies cart blanch over the pilots in the last 20 years. Ya, your ALPA really rocks. Fcuk off!

I couldn't be any more pissed at azzholes like you " ah fellas, it's not that bad, we've got troubles, it'll pass" Blow me!

 

[ualdriver]

You are on crack now. How about age 65? Who was that? I guess you're already a captain, and figure, " ah what the he!! I'll have to make that choice later" What about the ENTIRE MAJORITY of ALPA members.Fckuing Oberstar sent an email saying he wouldn"t have changed his mind if ALPA hadn't joined the party. Remember the LARGEST group of unionized pilots on the planet, so go blow your ALPA diatribe right out your fckuing azz. I hope your arrogant ass gets parted up, and sold for scrap, lets watch your golden shower chunky friend fcuk you followed by your booo hoo then Go fcuk yourself, and take that fcuking chunky Prater with you. ALPA has done NOTHING for this industry, but destroy hard fought rules, squandered leverage away, and given the companies cart blanch over the pilots in the last 20 years. Ya, your ALPA really rocks. Fcuk off!

I couldn't be any more pissed at azzholes like you " ah fellas, it's not that bad, we've got troubles, it'll pass" Blow me!

Whatever medication you're on......double it!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You are on crack now. How about age 65? Who was that? I guess you're already a captain, and figure, " ah what the he!! I'll have to make that choice later" What about the ENTIRE MAJORITY of ALPA members.Fckuing Oberstar sent an email saying he wouldn"t have changed his mind if ALPA hadn't joined the party. Remember the LARGEST group of unionized pilots on the planet, so go blow your ALPA diatribe right out your fckuing azz. I hope your arrogant ass gets parted up, and sold for scrap, lets watch your golden shower chunky friend fcuk you followed by your booo hoo then Go fcuk yourself, and take that fcuking chunky Prater with you. ALPA has done NOTHING for this industry, but destroy hard fought rules, squandered leverage away, and given the companies cart blanch over the pilots in the last 20 years. Ya, your ALPA really rocks. Fcuk off!

I couldn't be any more pissed at azzholes like you " ah fellas, it's not that bad, we've got troubles, it'll pass" Blow me!

I think UAL driver is simply saying.. despite difficulties stick with with program and not give up...

Resignation, cynicism, apathy, aggression, infighting, blame game, etc.... will contribute to our demise.

 

[cactusboy53]

the short answer? U

Would you be referring to DoUg? The NEW AIRLINE is based in Tempe, AZ dude. What's Lakefield doing now?

 

[Andy]

I'm going to presume that you believe another union and/or a union with more balls wouldn't have given in as much. Looking around at all the concessionary contracts the industry has suffered since 2001 I wonder exactly how much less you think you could've lost.

Nobody seems to like their union when things are tough. Funny how that works.

It's not about the amount lost; it's about equality of sacrifices. Some airlines' MECs made shared sacrifices.

Funny how Delta's and Northwest's ex-furloughees don't feel the same way about DALPA and NWALPA.
Could it be:

Their concessionary contracts didn't have the pilots who remained on property flying max hours. Flying max hours minimizes the paycuts of those still on property, while ensuring that those furloughed will be on the street longer.

Included their furloughees in bond payouts.

Delta (not sure about Northwest) gave their furloughees longevity credit.

 

[Marko Ramius]

I'm going to presume that you believe another union and/or a union with more balls wouldn't have given in as much. Looking around at all the concessionary contracts the industry has suffered since 2001 I wonder exactly how much less you think you could've lost.

Nobody seems to like their union when things are tough. Funny how that works.

You would presume wrong then and would be putting words in my mouth. How much less could have been lost? Plenty. The MC at UAL ALPA during the majority of the post 9/11 concessions outside of the last deal in 2005, was Paul Whiteford a furloughee from the last time UA furloughed back in 1978. He was closely aligned with a portion of the union leadership who really thought they could see eye-to-eye and get along with management equitably. His biggest claim to fame beyond his 'stellar' personality was that he achieved A fund furlough longevity credit for the 1978 furloughees along with any future furloughes-previous furloughees were left out. All he wanted was to protect the A fund, preferably at contract 2000 book rates. All other things, including not just furloughees and SJ limits, but pay, narrowbody work rules and rigs, guarantees, minimum fleet size, minimum pilot numbers and so on were a distant second to his goal. When even his committee people couldn't stand what he was doing, he just went around them. Most of UA's concessionary deals were negotiated without the use of the negotiating committee but instead with Whiteford and his handpicked helper. When the communication people couldn't deal with his garbage, he 'supplemented' them with an outside PR firm.

But that's all just more background stuff that illustrates how bad things were and doesn't answer your question as to what I think could/should have been done. First they(meaning the leadership and not the line peeps who by and large were more than willing), should have stepped up to the plate on helping out with COBRA funds like the other ALPA carriers did at the time. The attitude that MEC took on this issue along with the SJ/furlough grievance abeyances was a clear early indicator of where they were going with the furloughees.

Second they could have simply followed their own precedent. The last time UA furloughed people in violation of the contract, they settled those grievances by paying the affected pilots their salaries from when they were furloughed until ALPA settled the grievances and officially sanctioned the furlough. Most of the initial two groups of furlougees were on or just off probation, so they definitely could have used the $$$ along with longevity credit that was proposed and dropped after 'Economic Recovery Plan' I.

As for the rest, they could have just looked across the ALPA hallway at DAL. At the time, Delta and UAL's contract were extremely similar in many of the areas that were relevant here. The difference was that Delta fought their furloughee grievance and won a settlement that forced a recall schedule while UA ALPA didn't even try once after Nov. 2001. They also didn't gut their SJ provisions outside of BK in a shameless attempt to sacrifice jobs for an A fund and the overall size of their current pilot group compared to pre-9/11 shows it compared to what happened at UAL.

Speaking of SJ's, UA ALPA drug their feet on ensuring that their furloughees got a shot at the jobs created by their ignorance of the contract limits. UA pilots were first furloughed at the end of Oct. 2001, yet it wasn't until late 2003-2004 before the first furloughees were hired into UAX carriers and to add insult to injury for the guys who had been out for 2 years they doled the positions out by seniority order. IOW the people who just hit the street got first crack at a limited # of positions, and often left them quickly for other jobs reducing the future job opportunities for nothing. I'm not blaming those guys for leaving, just saying that it wasn't negotiated well especially when you compare it to say the Jets-4-jobs program that a much weaker UsAirways negotiated back during those times.

Also, look at how bad the fcuked over the narrowbody pilots with not only the paycuts, but no rigs, a low guarantee, less min. days off, movable R-days, among other things. You seem to think that I believe that all of this was the result of United being ALPA. It wasn't. It was the result of incredibly poor leadership that had a great deal of complicity from several LEC's and a bunch of pilots who didn't get involved so another union wouldn't change that and I never suggested that it would. Pilot apathy aside though most of these things were the brainchild of ALPA reps, and as such ALPA cannot escape culpability here imo as several of these things should never have even been brought to a vote.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

I think UAL driver is simply saying.. despite difficulties stick with with program and not give up...

I know what he's saying man. He's so removed, and comfortable, his life is just fine, he might have to tighten his belt, but hey at least he's got a job, thank ALPA for that!

Resignation, I truly give up, he's an idiot

cynicism, the guy will never learn

apathy, I mean honestly what can I do alone

aggression, f-ing pansies just like his friends

infighting, Don't talk to him that way! He's a captain damn you, He can't be wrong!

blame game, It's not Nationals moronic moves, it's ours for not hanging Prater

etc.... will contribute to our demise.

The only rephrase I'll say is it's not any of our local guys (barring another issue like Marco Ramious described) it's a total lack and a vacuum from Herndon, specifically Chunky and his gang. Worthe was as bad before, but would at least do an annual event! Honestly Chunky's deemed the EZ pass for crew is his "major issue" What a buffoon, how about someone on the news monthly with talking points, such as "pilot pay, we've got Major airline pilots able to collect food stamps, or Crew rest, or work rules, and the list goes on forever. NOTHING but pass 65 as sneaky as possible! That office, besides holding the meal money for chunky and a couple of lawyers is useless!

Hope you're enjoying class there man, and hopefully you won't be lectured by some ass like that. "we're all friends can't we all get along?" Ya, tell his arrogant one to go to right seat and shut up, "it's for the best, we'll ALL benefit, you don't have to work till 65, get it?" Moron, now we must to make up for the lost cash ass holes like pansy boy stole out of our pockets. I do give up, what an ass!

 

[TWA Dude]

It's not about the amount lost; it's about equality of sacrifices. Some airlines' MECs made shared sacrifices.

And some airlines were in worse financial shape than others. I've noticed a bit of a trend: the worse-off the airline the bigger the concessions extracted from the union. Do you disagree?

 

[TWA Dude]

Pilot apathy aside though most of these things were the brainchild of ALPA reps, and as such ALPA cannot escape culpability here imo as several of these things should never have even been brought to a vote.

You have legitimate gripes about your representation and won't take that away from you. My point is that ALPA is the convenient scapegoat. I submit that no other union would've or could've achieved anything substantially better. The economy, the government, bankruptcy court, and the airline's financials are what caused the terrible concessions of the last seven years.

In other words, dumping ALPA will yield no benefits. When the euphoria of the short-sighted USAir East pilots wears off this will become painfully obvious. A new scapegoat will need to be found. My guess is it will be USAPA.

 

[flygirlqt]

a vacuum from Herndon,

That continues to suck dues out of our pockets.