NWA/DAL solving the seniority issue

[DTW320]

deleted

Don't ya just love it when you get to read his post before he deletes it in fear.

 

[jke406]

Hey no facts please, your screwing up the integrity of FI!! Lets not leave out that the only reason why NWA rates are lower is because NWA kept pensions and DAL sold theirs out. So comparing payrates after both companies took paycuts is stupid. What would the DAL rates be if they would have kept their pensions? General i found your new avatar it will be up shortly~~~

Exactly. Delta guys already bought their higher rates by losing their DB plan.

Now you think NWA should get Delta's pay, DC plan, keep their pensions AND get a leg up on seniority?

No wonder those Delta guys are realizing what a crappy deal it is for them.

 

[Noserider76]

The problem with your logic is your comparisons are deliberately skewed. The PROPER comparison would be:
DAL MD88 to NWA DC9
DAL 737 to NWA A320
DAL 75/76 to NWA 757
DAL 767400 to NWA A330
DAL 777 to NWA 744

When you compare those rates guess what? DAL is 10 to 11% higher (except the 777 which is only 6% higher) just like everyone has known since the day the post BK contracts were signed. When compared Properly the facts suggest that your 767 is payed like a narrowbody, not the other way around. You guys continue to ignore this fact.

Don't get me wrong, I think we're all going to have to learn to get along but it gets old seeing the "facts" skewed to one side.

You say DL 767s pay narrow body rates but the fact it seems you would like to ignore is that the DL fleet of 247 757/767s pays only $2/hr less than the NW fleet of 32, much larger, A-330s. It's not the size of the airplane it's the pay. The fact is DL brings many more high paying jobs to the table of which NW guys will bid when/if the SLI is agreed to.

 

[General Lee]

At least you didn't call it debating like Generally. Debating requires the use of facts.

Wow, look up the rates on Airlinepilotcentral. Talk about crazy---why are you paring up the A330 with our 764? Not even close. Are you debating here, or HOPING? The 767 (and that means our numerous 757s) are next to your A330 pay rates. Our 764 pays more than your 744. Wow, you missed the boat on that one....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

Don't get me wrong, I think we're all going to have to learn to get along but it gets old seeing the "facts" skewed to one side.

You say DL 767s pay narrow body rates but the fact it seems you would like to ignore is that the DL fleet of 247 757/767s pays only $2/hr less than the NW fleet of 32, much larger, A-330s. It's not the size of the airplane it's the pay. The fact is DL brings many more high paying jobs to the table of which NW guys will bid when/if the SLI is agreed to.

What would your payrates be if you hadn't sold out the pensions? Didn't it go as a trade off? NWA guys took a bigger hit in hourly pay but kept pensions, DAL cut pensions but gave extra hourly pay. Payrates are different just like circumstances were different.

 

[Noserider76]

What would your payrates be if you hadn't sold out the pensions? Didn't it go as a trade off? NWA guys took a bigger hit in hourly pay but kept pensions, DAL cut pensions but gave extra hourly pay. Payrates are different just like circumstances were different.

You got me but what does the fact that NW guys kept their pensions do for a DL person except take money out of his pocket to pay for it after the merger?

How's training going by the way? I thought NW had an outstanding training dept when I was there. They went out of their way to pair guys up with a Capt (mine had been a -9 guy for 8 or so years) which made all the difference for a slow guy like me.

 

[Superpilot92]

You got me but what does the fact that NW guys kept their pensions do for a DL person except take money out of his pocket to pay for it after the merger.
How's training going by the way? I thought NW had an outstanding training dept when I was there. They went out of their way to pair guys up with a Capt (mine had been a -9 guy for 8 or so years) which made all the difference for a slow guy like me.

The pension pay has nothing to do with the payrates post merger. I was just pointing out that basing SLI off of payrates shouldn't even be a consideration because the payrates were set based on the sacrifices made by each pilot group post 911.

Training is great the instructors are fantastic. You're right the set up of having CAs with you in training is nice. Thanks for asking :beer:

 

[737 Pylt]

Don't ya just love it when you get to read his post before he deletes it in fear.

Don't worry, jerk406 just has to sign out and sign in as either jmoney or tanker clown.
Can you imagine entertaining his therapist appointments are?:laugh:

737

 

[Schwanker]

Payrates are not relavent as they change every contract.

IMPORTANT FACT:
Payrates are a flash in the pan. NWA payrates took a drastic hit in BK to save the pension. Fact is (think career expectations) NWA hourly pay rates will be on par with leading industry rates at the signing of our next contract. To discount this is demonstrating your disconnect from reality.

Couple this fact with the next fact: a new hire at NWA will make the top 1/2 the SL in the next 10-15 years in the NWA stand-alone plan. Shoving 7000 pilots infront of this newhire with relatively zero added retirements in the same 10-15 period will result in severe career stagnation.

Schwanker

 

[DTW320]

We brought our 757 rates up to our 767 rates. How much more does the A330 pay than the 767? How much more does the 764 pay than the A330? A lot more I believe. It pays $20 more an hour than the 767. You are the one who are skewed. Get the facts straight.

Well looky here.... I looked it up. Our 764 pays more than your 744. We have 21 of them too, which is larger than your 744 number. And, our 764 pays about $19 more an hour than your A330. Why did you pare them up with our 764? It is a lot closer to our 767, and that means closer to our 757. Talk about skewed......get your facts straight, again.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Generally, I hope you stay out of the stock market, because it is apparent that you think a $100 stock that goes up $5 has made more than a $5 stock that goes up $3. $5 is better than $3 right???

If you "brought up" your 757 rate to 767 rate, but it is still the same % higher than the NWA rate as other "non brought up" rates, then was the 757 brought up or was the 767 brought down?

As for the pensions, I've heard it both ways from you guys now. Which is it? Does losing your pension mean you need consideration for that in an SLI or were you all essentially made whole by the claim sale and note? Can't have it both ways. But it's sure been tried here.

 

[General Lee]

IMPORTANT FACT:
Payrates are a flash in the pan. NWA payrates took a drastic hit in BK to save the pension. Fact is (think career expectations) NWA hourly pay rates will be on par with leading industry rates at the signing of our next contract. To discount this is demonstrating your disconnect from reality.

Couple this fact with the next fact: a new hire at NWA will make the top 1/2 the SL in the next 10-15 years in the NWA stand-alone plan. Shoving 7000 pilots infront of this newhire with relatively zero added retirements in the same 10-15 period will result in severe career stagnation.

Schwanker

IMPORTANT FACT: You can't tell the future. Continuing high oil could force the parking of your DC9s sooner, and that could affect your SL in a bad way. FACT: SARS may reappear. FACT: You have no real facts here.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Schwanker]

IMPORTANT FACT: You can't tell the future. Continuing high oil could force the parking of your DC9s sooner, and that could affect your SL in a bad way. FACT: SARS may reappear. FACT: You have no real facts here.


Bye Bye--General Lee

FACT:
I've explained our SCOPE clause to you before and;
FACT:
You choose to ignore it to try and bolster your position.

By the way, did you know a paid for DC-9 costs approx $35 less per seat per segment than a leased B-737 (at attractive rates)? Maybe we'll have to pull some DC-9s out of the desert to replace some of your new costly 737s.

Schwanker

 

[Superpilot92]

IMPORTANT FACT: You can't tell the future. Continuing high oil could force the parking of your DC9s sooner, and that could affect your SL in a bad way. FACT: SARS may reappear. FACT: You have no real facts here.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I assume you believe that your DC9-80s wont be effected by fuel costs? Where are your facts GL before you start pointing fingers? You just said "you cant tell the future" yet you predict in the future the DC9s will be parked "sooner" Hi pot meet kettle!!

 

[General Lee]

Generally, I hope you stay out of the stock market, because it is apparent that you think a $100 stock that goes up $5 has made more than a $5 stock that goes up $3. $5 is better than $3 right???

If you "brought up" your 757 rate to 767 rate, but it is still the same % higher than the NWA rate as other "non brought up" rates, then was the 757 brought up or was the 767 brought down?

As for the pensions, I've heard it both ways from you guys now. Which is it? Does losing your pension mean you need consideration for that in an SLI or were you all essentially made whole by the claim sale and note? Can't have it both ways. But it's sure been tried here.

DTW319,

You skewed the facts to begin with. Don't tell me you didn't. You tried to compare the rates between our 764 and your A330, thanks to them being like sized. Well, our 764 pays more than anything you have, period. Don't tell me you forgot that. And, our 757 pays 2 dollars less an hour than your A330, and we have three times as many 757s as you have A330s. (not counting our 767s, which we have twice as many)

The real facts are that we pay a lot more, have more planes, and more widebodies. We did bring up the 757 rates in 1999 to the 767, and if we lost a certain percentage during our BK, wouldn't that be the same on the 767 as the 757? IF the pay rates on the 757 were lower than the 767, would they still be lower after the pay cut? So, we DID bring the 757 rates UP. The main difference after the C2K contract was the INTL perdiem was more on the 767 INTL (and select 757 INTL flights) The per hour pay rate was brought UP on the 757 to match the 767. The INTL per diem and night override is what was higher--and that counted on both the 75 and 76. That is what took the largest hit after BK. But, you still can't say our 757 was not brought up to the 767 base pay rate. It was. Back then we had more 767-300s doing domestic routes too, including 13 767-300ER domesitc birds only doing domestic (now INTL), and 14 767-200s doing only domestic.

And, I would stay out of the stock market now until it bottoms out.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DTW320]

FACT:
I've explained our SCOPE clause to you before and;
FACT:
You choose to ignore it to try and bolster your position.

By the way, did you know a paid for DC-9 costs approx $35 less per seat per segment than a leased B-737 (at attractive rates)? Maybe we'll have to pull some DC-9s out of the desert to replace some of your new costly 737s.

Schwanker

FACT: That is exactly why Generally doesn't really debate....he trolls. Debate would require facts to be acknowledged and not ignored

 

[~~~^~~~]

DTW DaimlerChrysler Aerospace Airbus 319:

Whatever, the General makes more sense than your "the same is not the same because it is not different enough" logic.

Care to come back to that topic and debate, or was that just something you tossed out the window on a drive by?

 

[General Lee]

I assume you believe that your DC9-80s wont be effected by fuel costs? Where are your facts GL before you start pointing fingers? You just said "you cant tell the future" yet you predict in the future the DC9s will be parked "sooner" Hi pot meet kettle!!

Well, they carry a heck of a lot more than your DC9-30s, 40s, and even 50s. The key here is that you need to be able to pay for your fixed costs, and the fuel costs that are rising. During the busy Spring and Summer season, the planes with more seats tend to be able to pay for the whole deal better. Your DC9s may not be able to do it. RJs may not be able to do it. Yes, your DC9s are owned outright, but our MD88s are also a lot cheaper than before BK ($200,000 a month cheaper), and the additional seats, the FMS and Auto Throttles (allowing direct routings and correct fuel flows for every stage of flight) save on fuel no doubt. Even Southwest is adding an Autothrottle system (only for cruise) for their 737s right now in order to save on fuel. You can't argue with that....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DTW320]

Wow, look up the rates on Airlinepilotcentral. Talk about crazy---why are you paring up the A330 with our 764? Ummm, because our 330 has more seats than your 400? Or are you not using the seat argument today like you have before? Oh, I see, you think the payrate argument will work better here even though you will have to pair-up different airplanes for comparison than before and ignore that whole pesky "percentage" thingymajig....GOT IT!Not even close. Are you debating here, or HOPING? The 767 (and that means our numerous 757s) are next to your A330 pay rates. Our 764 pays more than your 744. Wow, you missed the boat on that one....

Bye Bye--General Lee

Box-O-Rocks

 

[General Lee]

FACT: That is exactly why Generally doesn't really debate....he trolls. Debate would require facts

Again DTW319, when you are cornered, you slam. IT is obvious. Try looking at the numbers on Airlinepilotcentral and get back to me when you are "enlightened." Really, you are looking pathetic. Oh yeah, I troll...........on subjects that I know about. You are losing this one.....keep it up.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DTW320]

DTW:

Whatever, the General makes more sense than your "the same is not the same because it is not different enough" logic.

Care to come back to that topic and debate, or was that just something you tossed out the window on a drive by?

For a self-professed MBA you sure can't hack number comparisons expressed in relative terms, ie percentages. Now don't you have a resignation letter to type?

 

[DTW320]

FACT: That is exactly why Generally doesn't really debate....he trolls. Debate would require facts

Again DTW319, when you are cornered, you slam. IT is obvious. Try looking at the numbers on Airlinepilotcentral and get back to me when you are "enlightened." Really, you are looking pathetic. Oh yeah, I troll...........on subjects that I know about. You are losing this one.....keep it up.

Bye Bye--General Lee

When you are cornered, daily here, you ignore. Over and over and over. At least you're predictable!

 

[Noserider76]

IMPORTANT FACT:
Payrates are a flash in the pan. NWA payrates took a drastic hit in BK to save the pension. Fact is (think career expectations) NWA hourly pay rates will be on par with leading industry rates at the signing of our next contract. To discount this is demonstrating your disconnect from reality.

Couple this fact with the next fact: a new hire at NWA will make the top 1/2 the SL in the next 10-15 years in the NWA stand-alone plan. Shoving 7000 pilots infront of this newhire with relatively zero added retirements in the same 10-15 period will result in severe career stagnation.

Schwanker

OK, I could buy your argument that payrates are temporary although 4 more years of lower pay plus another 1 or 2 for negotiations is a pretty good chunk of most people's career. It's easy to say "we'll make that up on the next contract", but you really have no idea what the circumstances will be 4-6 years down the road.

DL still brings many more high paying aircraft to the table that NW pilots will benefit from for the remainder of their careers. Much of that will be to the detriment of the DL guys currently on that equipment as we bump a little further down on every AE and see our upgrade on that equipment move further and further down the road. Stagnation at it's best. I predict the only guys that don't stagnate are the one's willing to commute to DTW and the -9. That'll probably be the NW guys already there.

 

[Schwanker]

FACT:
I've explained our SCOPE clause to you before and;
FACT:
You choose to ignore it to try and bolster your position.

By the way, did you know a paid for DC-9 costs approx $35 less per seat per segment than a leased B-737 (at attractive rates)? Maybe we'll have to pull some DC-9s out of the desert to replace some of your new costly 737s.

Schwanker

General? Kind of quiet-not like you. Are you OK?

 

[General Lee]

Box-O-Rocks


Ummm, because our 330 has more seats than your 400? Or are you not using the seat argument today like you have before? Oh, I see, you think the payrate argument will work better here even though you will have to pair-up different airplanes for comparison than before and ignore that whole pesky "percentage" thingymajig....GOT IT?

DTW319, I have no idea what you are saying there. Our 767-300ERs match up to your A330-200s with seats, and pay. Our 764s match up to your A330-300s in seats, but not even close in pay. They pay more than your 744. Your DC9s aren't even close to our MD88s, in pay or seats. You are a small man in your mini-bus. Your A319 is smaller than our MD88s too, and you get paid less to fly into DTW. Them's the facts.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jke406]

General? Kind of quiet-not like you. Are you OK?

probably because trying to reason with you is like slamming one's wang in a heavy metal door: excruciatingly painful and utterly without an upside.

 

[General Lee]

General? Kind of quiet-not like you. Are you OK?

Quiet? Riiight. I see a large hole in DTW319's logic, and I will exploit it. It is sooo easy when he does that.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

For a self-professed MBA you sure can't hack number comparisons expressed in relative terms, ie percentages. Now don't you have a resignation letter to type?

I do not have an MBA. But I do understand number comparisons based in relative terms, do you? Terms like "Relative Seniority" make much more sense than the "same isn't the same because it is not different enough."

I'm holding my LOR until we learn the fate of my #1 choice airline. If displaced, it will be dated, signed and faxed in from an outstation after the equity payout. But I will not be displaced until you finish training on my slot Bus boy.

My CEO and my union have repeatedly stated the same principle with regard to seniority integration, so there are still a few bridges you have to cross before you roar into Atlanta like Sherman on a march to the sea.

I'm just yanking your chain, I'm sure you will do fine with the 767 and I'll do fine with a G550 if the worst case scenario comes to pass.

 

[Schwanker]

OK, I could buy your argument that payrates are temporary although 4 more years of lower pay plus another 1 or 2 for negotiations is a pretty good chunk of most people's career.

We can agree! It will be three more years-2011. As in the past, I'm sure all payrates will be backpaid to the amendable date with interest. Is expediting this raise a couple years worth a stagnated career? Relative advancement up the combined list will be considerably slower for NWA guys than it would be in a stand alone scenario.

Schwanker

 

[Superpilot92]

DTW319, I have no idea what you are saying there. Our 767-300ERs match up to your A330-200s with seats, and pay. Our 764s match up to your A330-300s in seats, but not even close in pay. They pay more than your 744. Your DC9s aren't even close to our MD88s, in pay or seats. You are a small man in your mini-bus. Your A319 is smaller than our MD88s too, and you get pay less to fly into DTW. Them's the facts.


Bye Bye--General Lee

"Ummm, because our 330 has more seats than your 400? Or are you not using the seat argument today like you have before? Oh, I see, you think the payrate argument will work better here even though you will have to pair-up different airplanes for comparison than before and ignore that whole pesky "percentage" thingymajig....GOT IT?"


Maybe thats what he was talking about? GL when did you get 330's?

 

[737 Pylt]

probably because trying to reason with you is like slamming one's wang in a heavy metal door: excruciatingly painful and utterly without an upside.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Another one for the therapist....
As much as I don't like this guy, that was pretty funny!

737