NWA/DAL solving the seniority issue

[viper548]

If management really wants this to go through they should tie a very large aircraft order to it
-20 777LR
-20 787
-20 A330
-60 737's

 

[737 Pylt]

Please don't spew facts to the general and 737pileof$hit, they don't want to hear them. Looks like CAL will be our best choice, looking at DAL's financials.

Heyas red:
You practicing your gear swinging techniques?
Remember, gear up, shut up!

737

 

[Noserider76]

Am I missing something....when did a 767 become a narrowbody aircraft? You do realize that our 757/767 rate is almost identical to your A330 rate right? So I guess that means you only have 31 747s and we only have 30 777/767-400 since everything else is a narrowbody. Give me a frickin break. Whatever, I don't care...it's pointless to argue on here anyway.

You're right it's pointless to argue with some of these guys. Good posts though.

He also forgot to tell you that his 757s pay about the same as DLs MD-88s and the 787s on order (at least a year away) pay just a hair more than DL's 757/767 and quite a bit less than the 767-400. It is much more convienient to forget those things when you want no part of any compromise and just want to keep repeating "SLI is everything."

 

[737 Pylt]

You're right it's pointless to argue with some of these guys. Good posts though.

He also forgot to tell you that his 757s pay about the same as DLs MD-88s and the 787s on order (at least a year away) pay just a hair more than DL's 757/767 and quite a bit less than the 767-400. It is much more convienient to forget those things when you just want to keep repeating "SLI is everything."

You mean DOH is everything..........
These guys at NWA cant even get along with each other, so how do you expect them to play nice with anyone else? How many arbitrations over the past 20 years???

737

 

[DTW320]

12 YR Rates

DAL 757 $160 CA / $109 FO
NWA A330 $162 CA / $110 FO

Now lets compare "narrow body"
DAL 737 $154 CA / $105 FO
NWA 757 $144 CA / $98 FO
DAL MD88 $142 CA / $97 FO

Delta's wide body 757 rates are documented above from the airline pilot central board. DAL's guppy pays more than your 757.

The facts indicate that Delta's 757's are paid at widebody rates and that NWA would have to be brought up to Delta's standard. The MD88 at Delta pays within two dollars of your 757's and that's Delta's smallest jet.
What does this mean? Credit with who? Is this a position for arbitration?

By paycheck and equipment type the NWA pilots would not do as well as the relative seniority already offered. I'm surprised they want arbitration....

The problem with your logic is your comparisons are deliberately skewed. The PROPER comparison would be:
DAL MD88 to NWA DC9
DAL 737 to NWA A320
DAL 75/76 to NWA 757
DAL 767400 to NWA A330
DAL 777 to NWA 744

When you compare those rates guess what? DAL is 10 to 11% higher (except the 777 which is only 6% higher) just like everyone has known since the day the post BK contracts were signed. When compared Properly the facts suggest that your 767 is payed like a narrowbody, not the other way around. You guys continue to ignore this fact.

 

[General Lee]

No one gains anything from a merged fleet without vacancies. If an NWA guy is given a seniority number that would allow him to hold 757/767 on a combined list instead of an A320 on his current list is doesn't matter until there is a vacancy. The same holds true the other direction. If a DAL guy is given a seniority number that would allow him to hold 747 on a combined list instead of 757/767 (or even 777) on his current list he can't actually go to the 747 until there is a vacancy.

NWA guys obviously think they bring more vacancies (retirements) to the table. With a ratio integration, half of all vacancies will be filled by each companies pilots. Is that fair if 60% of vacancies are brought by NWA pilots (retiring or otherwise)? 70%? 80%?

What's fair?

Drew,

We have 3 777LRs coming this year (LR equals Long Range, equals lots of Captains---2 per ultra long flight), and we get 6 777LRs within 3 months starting at the end of this year (Dec 31st to Mar 31st of 09). How many Captains will that represent? We also get 6 737-700s, just completed getting 17 757-200ERs, and we have more orders for those 73NGs (25 total 737-700s and more 737-800s). And, of course, there are the MD90s, which are out there and we are the only major flier of them. Saudia just put 28 up for sale, and there are many more in China and Japan, some of which we have already looked at. The rumor I heard was that they would slowly replace the DC9-40s/50s. So, we are upgrading due to actual expansion, not waiting for a plane that hasn't even flown yet. We have planes coming NOW, and our INTL expansion adds the need for even more pilots. You guys are bringing new planes in the FUTURE, and FUTURE retirements. We are brining future airplanes (777s, 737-700s, MD90s), and planes/expansion NOW.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DTW320]

Am I missing something YES....when did a 767 become a narrowbody aircraft?When you agreed to narrowbody payrates on it! Again, your 767 pays 11% more than NWA 757...just like every comparable a/c comparison in the fleets.... You do realize that our 757/767 rate is almost identical to your A330 rate right?You do realize that it is 11% more than NWA 757 right? Apples/Oranges...seems to be a recurring theme with you guys...and things like math and % don't seem to be a strong point for all you DL MBA's that we've been told make up the majority of your pilots. So I guess that means you only have 31 747s and we only have 30 777/767-400 since everything else is a narrowbody. Give me a frickin break. Whatever, I don't care...it's pointless to argue on here anyway.

At least you didn't call it debating like Generally. Debating requires the use of facts.

 

[General Lee]

The problem with your logic is your comparisons are deliberately skewed. The PROPER comparison would be:
DAL MD88 to NWA DC9
DAL 737 to NWA A320
DAL 75/76 to NWA 757
DAL 767400 to NWA A330
DAL 777 to NWA 744

When you compare those rates guess what? DAL is 10 to 11% higher (except the 777 which is only 6% higher) just like everyone has known since the day the post BK contracts were signed. When compared Properly the facts suggest that your 767 is payed like a narrowbody, not the other way around. You guys continue to ignore this fact.

Well looky here. I looked it up. The 764 pays more than your 744. We have 21 of them too, which is more than your number of 747-400s. They all fly INTL , which means they get the INTL override too. The 764 pays $19 more per hour than the A330. Why did you decide to compare that to your A330, which actually should be pared up with the 767, and I guess our 757. Skewed indeed.......

We brought our 757 rates up to our 767 rates. How much more does the A330 pay than the 767? How much more does the 764 pay than the A330? A lot more I believe. It pays $20 more an hour than the 767. You are the one who are skewed. Get the facts straight.

Well looky here.... I looked it up. Our 764 pays more than your 744. We have 21 of them too, which is larger than your 744 number. And, our 764 pays about $19 more an hour than your A330. Why did you pare them up with our 764? It is a lot closer to our 767, and that means closer to our 757. Talk about skewed......get your facts straight, again.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

The problem with your logic is your comparisons are deliberately skewed. The PROPER comparison would be:
DAL MD88 to NWA DC9
DAL 737 to NWA A320
DAL 75/76 to NWA 757
DAL 767400 to NWA A330
DAL 777 to NWA 744

When you compare those rates guess what? DAL is 10 to 11% higher (except the 777 which is only 6% higher) just like everyone has known since the day the post BK contracts were signed. When compared Properly the facts suggest that your 767 is payed like a narrowbody, not the other way around. You guys continue to ignore this fact.

Hey no facts please, your screwing up the integrity of FI!! Lets not leave out that the only reason why NWA rates are lower is because NWA kept pensions and DAL sold theirs out. So comparing payrates after both companies took paycuts is stupid. What would the DAL rates be if they would have kept their pensions? General i found your new avatar it will be up shortly~~~

 

[~~~^~~~]

DTW:

So your arguement is that the same is different because it is not different by 11%. Let me guess, public schools followed by a non business major.

You guys crack me up. If this goes to arbitration the panelists eyes will be crossed after you explain that the same isn't the same because it is not different enough.

 

[DTW320]

deleted

Don't ya just love it when you get to read his post before he deletes it in fear.

 

[jke406]

Hey no facts please, your screwing up the integrity of FI!! Lets not leave out that the only reason why NWA rates are lower is because NWA kept pensions and DAL sold theirs out. So comparing payrates after both companies took paycuts is stupid. What would the DAL rates be if they would have kept their pensions? General i found your new avatar it will be up shortly~~~

Exactly. Delta guys already bought their higher rates by losing their DB plan.

Now you think NWA should get Delta's pay, DC plan, keep their pensions AND get a leg up on seniority?

No wonder those Delta guys are realizing what a crappy deal it is for them.

 

[Noserider76]

The problem with your logic is your comparisons are deliberately skewed. The PROPER comparison would be:
DAL MD88 to NWA DC9
DAL 737 to NWA A320
DAL 75/76 to NWA 757
DAL 767400 to NWA A330
DAL 777 to NWA 744

When you compare those rates guess what? DAL is 10 to 11% higher (except the 777 which is only 6% higher) just like everyone has known since the day the post BK contracts were signed. When compared Properly the facts suggest that your 767 is payed like a narrowbody, not the other way around. You guys continue to ignore this fact.

Don't get me wrong, I think we're all going to have to learn to get along but it gets old seeing the "facts" skewed to one side.

You say DL 767s pay narrow body rates but the fact it seems you would like to ignore is that the DL fleet of 247 757/767s pays only $2/hr less than the NW fleet of 32, much larger, A-330s. It's not the size of the airplane it's the pay. The fact is DL brings many more high paying jobs to the table of which NW guys will bid when/if the SLI is agreed to.

 

[General Lee]

At least you didn't call it debating like Generally. Debating requires the use of facts.

Wow, look up the rates on Airlinepilotcentral. Talk about crazy---why are you paring up the A330 with our 764? Not even close. Are you debating here, or HOPING? The 767 (and that means our numerous 757s) are next to your A330 pay rates. Our 764 pays more than your 744. Wow, you missed the boat on that one....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

Don't get me wrong, I think we're all going to have to learn to get along but it gets old seeing the "facts" skewed to one side.

You say DL 767s pay narrow body rates but the fact it seems you would like to ignore is that the DL fleet of 247 757/767s pays only $2/hr less than the NW fleet of 32, much larger, A-330s. It's not the size of the airplane it's the pay. The fact is DL brings many more high paying jobs to the table of which NW guys will bid when/if the SLI is agreed to.

What would your payrates be if you hadn't sold out the pensions? Didn't it go as a trade off? NWA guys took a bigger hit in hourly pay but kept pensions, DAL cut pensions but gave extra hourly pay. Payrates are different just like circumstances were different.

 

[Noserider76]

What would your payrates be if you hadn't sold out the pensions? Didn't it go as a trade off? NWA guys took a bigger hit in hourly pay but kept pensions, DAL cut pensions but gave extra hourly pay. Payrates are different just like circumstances were different.

You got me but what does the fact that NW guys kept their pensions do for a DL person except take money out of his pocket to pay for it after the merger?

How's training going by the way? I thought NW had an outstanding training dept when I was there. They went out of their way to pair guys up with a Capt (mine had been a -9 guy for 8 or so years) which made all the difference for a slow guy like me.

 

[Superpilot92]

You got me but what does the fact that NW guys kept their pensions do for a DL person except take money out of his pocket to pay for it after the merger.
How's training going by the way? I thought NW had an outstanding training dept when I was there. They went out of their way to pair guys up with a Capt (mine had been a -9 guy for 8 or so years) which made all the difference for a slow guy like me.

The pension pay has nothing to do with the payrates post merger. I was just pointing out that basing SLI off of payrates shouldn't even be a consideration because the payrates were set based on the sacrifices made by each pilot group post 911.

Training is great the instructors are fantastic. You're right the set up of having CAs with you in training is nice. Thanks for asking :beer:

 

[737 Pylt]

Don't ya just love it when you get to read his post before he deletes it in fear.

Don't worry, jerk406 just has to sign out and sign in as either jmoney or tanker clown.
Can you imagine entertaining his therapist appointments are?:laugh:

737

 

[Schwanker]

Payrates are not relavent as they change every contract.

IMPORTANT FACT:
Payrates are a flash in the pan. NWA payrates took a drastic hit in BK to save the pension. Fact is (think career expectations) NWA hourly pay rates will be on par with leading industry rates at the signing of our next contract. To discount this is demonstrating your disconnect from reality.

Couple this fact with the next fact: a new hire at NWA will make the top 1/2 the SL in the next 10-15 years in the NWA stand-alone plan. Shoving 7000 pilots infront of this newhire with relatively zero added retirements in the same 10-15 period will result in severe career stagnation.

Schwanker

 

[DTW320]

We brought our 757 rates up to our 767 rates. How much more does the A330 pay than the 767? How much more does the 764 pay than the A330? A lot more I believe. It pays $20 more an hour than the 767. You are the one who are skewed. Get the facts straight.

Well looky here.... I looked it up. Our 764 pays more than your 744. We have 21 of them too, which is larger than your 744 number. And, our 764 pays about $19 more an hour than your A330. Why did you pare them up with our 764? It is a lot closer to our 767, and that means closer to our 757. Talk about skewed......get your facts straight, again.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Generally, I hope you stay out of the stock market, because it is apparent that you think a $100 stock that goes up $5 has made more than a $5 stock that goes up $3. $5 is better than $3 right???

If you "brought up" your 757 rate to 767 rate, but it is still the same % higher than the NWA rate as other "non brought up" rates, then was the 757 brought up or was the 767 brought down?

As for the pensions, I've heard it both ways from you guys now. Which is it? Does losing your pension mean you need consideration for that in an SLI or were you all essentially made whole by the claim sale and note? Can't have it both ways. But it's sure been tried here.