NWA/DAL solving the seniority issue

[jetflier]

It seems from this side that many on the NW side want everything and want to give up nothing to get it. DL guys seem to realize that, even with the large hit they would take in a realtive seniority deal, compromise will be required in any merger. Not so sure now though as positions seem to be hardening here.

Just what are the DAL pilots giving up to make the deal happen ?

 

[General Lee]

It seems from this side that many on the NW side want everything and want to give up nothing to get it. DL guys seem to realize that, even with the large hit they would take in a realtive seniority deal, compromise will be required in any merger. Not so sure now though as positions seem to be hardening here.

Just what are the DAL pilots giving up to make the deal happen ?

What we are giving up or GAVE up? We don't have a pension. We kept certain things, like better work rules and pay rates, and lost the pensions. You guys keep your frozen pensions, and still get our wages and better work rules. You also get a chance to fly closer to where you live (if you commute), and a better chance to fly a widebody, which means even more pay right there. Yes, you guys may be stagnate for awhile, but the same thing could happen if there is a world wide recession, and gas continues to go sky high and Steenland decides suddenly to get rid of a few more DC9s than originally thought.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[123]

What we are giving up or GAVE up? We don't have a pension. We kept certain things, like better work rules and pay rates, and lost the pensions. You guys keep your frozen pensions, and still get our wages and better work rules. You also get a chance to fly closer to where you live (if you commute), and a better chance to fly a widebody, which means even more pay right there. Yes, you guys may be stagnate for awhile, but the same thing could happen if there is a world wide recession, and gas continues to go sky high and Steenland decides suddenly to get rid of a few more DC9s than originally thought.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Are you implying that the DAL pilots would not be stagnant in a combined list? Not sure I am reading your response correctly.

What do you estimate the probability of a global (world wide) recession?

 

[General Lee]

Are you implying that the DAL pilots would not be stagnant in a combined list? Not sure I am reading your response correctly.

What do you estimate the probability of a global (world wide) recession?

I think plenty of DL pilots would be stagnate. Absolutely. And could we have a worldwide recession? If gas prices go up everywhere, then probably. If US citizens can't afford foreign goods, then other areas around the world may feel the pinch too. Look how the US Credit market is affecting other economies.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[123]

I think plenty of DL pilots would be stagnate. Absolutely. And could we have a worldwide recession? If gas prices go up everywhere, then probably. If US citizens can't afford foreign goods, then other areas around the world may feel the pinch too. Look how the US Credit market is affecting other economies.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I still think that a combined NWA/DAL would be in the best interest of most pilots, provided that we are able to band together and work as a cohesive group, led by a management team striving to operate the best airline in the world. I also think that there would be stagnation, for a short term.

It is my understanding that DAL staff's the fleets with more pilots per seat. Is this a requirement due to contractual work rules, or is it because they want added flexibility and reduced crew time issues? Or is it because they really like pilots, and want to have as many as they can on property, because we are so cool?

Thanks,
123

P.S. It is not just the US Credit market that is laging on the global economy. Great Britain has been having very similar issues with their lending, and quite frankly, the culprit in this is the irresponsible lending conducted in the sub-prime market combined with a new and fast growing derivitives market which is invested in by many global players.
A global recession is a good topic to debate, but probabably not here.

 

[General Lee]

I still think that a combined NWA/DAL would be in the best interest of most pilots, provided that we are able to band together and work as a cohesive group, led by a management team striving to operate the best airline in the world. I also think that there would be stagnation, for a short term.

It is my understanding that DAL staff's the fleets with more pilots per seat. Is this a requirement due to contractual work rules, or is it because they want added flexibility and reduced crew time issues? Or is it because they really like pilots, and want to have as many as they can on property, because we are so cool?

Thanks,
123

P.S. It is not just the US Credit market that is laging on the global economy. Great Britain has been having very similar issues with their lending, and quite frankly, the culprit in this is the irresponsible lending conducted in the sub-prime market combined with a new and fast growing derivitives market which is invested in by many global players.
A global recession is a good topic to debate, but probabably not here.

You may be right about the worldwide recession, I don't really know. But, if we can't afford to buy as many goods, it wouldn't help some areas of the world that depend on us.

Anyway, I have heard that if you guys got our rules, that you would have to hire 300-400 pilots extra, and that is without any new growth. So, I think we must have more pilots per plane, etc. As far as being stagnate, I think you are right, it would be short term. When your senior guys leave, we will all move up. Is that fair to some, and not to others? I don't know. If we stayed independant, would we not all grow? If the economy tanked even worse and something like SARS came back, wouldn't we contract? What will high oil do to us? Nothing is certain. Would combining two good airlines make one great one? Good question. Two unhappy pilot groups together has done a number on USAir. A fair agreement for all may be hard to achieve, but a mostly fair one may be better than no agreement and intense competition with high oil hovering over us.

There are some factors for both of us---we are bigger and have more widebodies, and are getting more sooner. You are older, and have the POTENTIAL for a lot of retirements sooner. You can offer us a larger Asian presence, and we can do the same for you in Europe, and introduce you to South America and Africa. You have two fortress hubs that for the moment lack major LCC presence. We rule the largest and busiest airport in the world.

So, we can offer each other a lot of things, but our pilots will have to find a fair way to bring us together, or it may never happen, or it may be forced upon us with zero goodies. We shall see....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[JAM-BRO]

I checked a DAL sen list today. With relative seniority I loose 1 1/2 years in seniority. I am at 79% from the top. I was hired in May'98 and that would put me just below a Dec'99 DAL hire.

 

[jetflier]

What we are giving up or GAVE up? We don't have a pension. We kept certain things, like better work rules and pay rates, and lost the pensions.

Your choice, 63 % of NWA pilots agreed to save the pension.

You guys keep your frozen pensions,

And you agreed not to save yours.


and still get our wages and better work rules.

See above.


You also get a chance to fly closer to where you live (if you commute),

I haven't met one NWA pilot who wants or needs DAL bases, they all seem content with their bases.


and a better chance to fly a widebody,

Uhhh......no ! NWA pilots have always had a better chance of flying our widebody aircraft. NWA has a higher ratio of WB to NB.


Yes, you guys may be stagnate for awhile,

Nope, no way ! We will not agree to that. And as you said, "we kept certain things", like our top senior 1000+ pilots retiring in the next five years, and those opportunities to fly our widebodies, 747-400, 747-200F, A330-200, A330-300, 787, and 757 (you consider a WB).

but the same thing could happen if there is a world wide recession, and gas continues to go sky high

Good point, its happening. NWA has better financials than DAL, I'm not worried,...untill we merge with DAL.

and Steenland decides suddenly to get rid of a few more DC9s than originally thought.


Well its true the DC9's are not as fuel efficient as the DC9-80 , 88, 90 that DAL flies, but as old aircraft you know that they are paid for long ago. And with such good financial numbers at NWA we're not as concerned as you seem to be.
If NWA didn't have the good financial performance it had last year, I would think that they would look to slash expenses any where they could.


I think that during CH 11 our agreeing to change work rules and fly with 400 less pilots as you mentioned made us a better financial performer.

So we bring to Delta a leaner, stronger better financial performer with a billion dollar$ more cash in the bank than DAL, and we're smaller,...imagine that!.....

....now what is it again that the DAL pilots are giving up to make the deal happen?

 

[nwaredtail]

What we are giving up or GAVE up? We don't have a pension. We kept certain things, like better work rules and pay rates, and lost the pensions.

Your choice, 63 % of NWA pilots agreed to save the pension.

You guys keep your frozen pensions,

And you agreed not to save yours.


and still get our wages and better work rules.

See above.


You also get a chance to fly closer to where you live (if you commute),

I haven't met one NWA pilot who wants or needs DAL bases, they all seem content with their bases.


and a better chance to fly a widebody,

Uhhh......no ! NWA pilots have always had a better chance of flying our widebody aircraft. NWA has a higher ratio of WB to NB.


Yes, you guys may be stagnate for awhile,

Nope, no way ! We will not agree to that. And as you said, "we kept certain things", like our top senior 1000+ pilots retiring in the next five years, and those opportunities to fly our widebodies, 747-400, 747-200F, A330-200, A330-300, 787, and 757 (you consider a WB).

but the same thing could happen if there is a world wide recession, and gas continues to go sky high

Good point, its happening. NWA has better financials than DAL, I'm not worried,...untill we merge with DAL.

and Steenland decides suddenly to get rid of a few more DC9s than originally thought.


Well its true the DC9's are not as fuel efficient as the DC9-80 , 88, 90 that DAL flies, but as old aircraft you know that they are paid for long ago. And with such good financial numbers at NWA we're not as concerned as you seem to be.
If NWA didn't have the good financial performance it had last year, I would think that they would look to slash expenses any where they could.


I think that during CH 11 our agreeing to change work rules and fly with 400 less pilots as you mentioned made us a better financial performer.

So we bring to Delta a leaner, stronger better financial performer with a billion dollar$ more cash in the bank than DAL, and we're smaller,...imagine that!.....

....now what is it again that the DAL pilots are giving up to make the deal happen?

Please don't spew facts to the general and 737pileof$hit, they don't want to hear them. Looks like CAL will be our best choice, looking at DAL's financials.

 

[NuGuy]

I checked a DAL sen list today. With relative seniority I loose 1 1/2 years in seniority. I am at 79% from the top. I was hired in May'98 and that would put me just below a Dec'99 DAL hire.

Heyas Jam,

Yup. A lot guys take in the shorts with a ratio type deal like that. But what's really bad is the stagnation that happens down the road a couple of years.

The DAL types would have you believe that you'd "power out" of the stagnation by all the growth that is planned, but with the recession coming (if it's not already hear), I'd put very little stock in that.

I sure hope this thing goes away.

Nu

 

[Tantrum]

It seems from this side that many on the NW side want everything and want to give up nothing to get it. DL guys seem to realize that, even with the large hit they would take in a realtive seniority deal, compromise will be required in any merger. Not so sure now though as positions seem to be hardening here.

Just what are the DAL pilots giving up to make the deal happen ?

This is what Delta pilots feel they would give up if the SLI went according to DALs relative seniority proposal:

Right now, 24.3% of DAL planes are widebody, 30% are 757, and 45.7% are narrowbody (md88, 737).

NWA 17.7% are widebody, 20% 757, and 62.4% narrowbody (airbus, dc9).

So in total (including the 757 since it pays the same rate as the 767) DAL has 54.3% widebody paying aircraft while NWA has 37.6% widebody paying aircraft.

In addition, due to widebody's having higher staffing than narrowbody's, here are the current staffing numbers for DAL: 61% of our captains get widebody pay and 67% of our FOs get widebody pay. I don't know the exact NWA staffing ratios, but I will guess that about 40% of captains are getting widebody pay and 45% of FOs are getting widebody pay.

So let's compare a mid level captain at both companies. At DAL, that captain would be guaranteed a widebody captain position since 61% of our captains get widebody pay. At NWA that same relative seniority would not guarantee a widebody captain position since only 40% of the captains are making widebody pay.

Now let's say the companies merged. At that point, only 47% of the total aircraft would be widebody pay. So only about 53% of captains would receive widebody pay. If seniority is merged on a relative seniority basis, you can see that NWA makes out much better as only 40% of the captains used to make widebody pay, but now the top 53% will make widebody pay. Whereas at DAL the top 61% of captains make widebody pay but now only the top 53% would make widebody pay. This argument can be made on the FO side as well with NWA reaping the benfits of DALs higher percentage of widebody aircraft.

As you can see, DAL is actually giving up a lot with our relative seniority proposal.

By the way, these are the numbers as they stand today, not including deliveries since DAL and NWA both have several aircraft on order, they are basically a wash.

 

[PuffDriver]

It's actually very simple. The Delta pilots are giving up the majority of the "pilots-get-on-board" money offered by management. NWA keeps their pension, yet get brought up to Delta pay, work rules, vacation, etc. AND they also get equal equity. Despite the fact they bring a pittance of the widebodies to the game, and less narrowboies, they get a ratioed integration.

The choice is obvious with peak oil coming, the economy in the tubes, globalization the next step.

This deal IS coming with or without the pilots on board. If the choice is to leave it for now, it will come back WITHOUT the extra money and shoved in our face. Then, ALPA merger policy will kick in anyway, and the NWA pilots will get a ratio.

Might as well take the money too guys. There it is, simple, direct, to the point.

 

[Redmeat]

It's actually very simple. The Delta pilots are giving up the majority of the "pilots-get-on-board" money offered by management. NWA keeps their pension, yet get brought up to Delta pay, work rules, vacation, etc. AND they also get equal equity. Despite the fact they bring a pittance of the widebodies to the game, and less narrowboies, they get a ratioed integration.

The choice is obvious with peak oil coming, the economy in the tubes, globalization the next step.

This deal IS coming with or without the pilots on board. If the choice is to leave it for now, it will come back WITHOUT the extra money and shoved in our face. Then, ALPA merger policy will kick in anyway, and the NWA pilots will get a ratio.

Might as well take the money too guys. There it is, simple, direct, to the point.

There it is.

500 pages of meaningless drivel when the situation at hand can summed up perfectly with two sentences.

 

[Superpilot92]

There it is.

500 pages of meaningless drivel when the situation at hand can summed up perfectly with two sentences.

Agreed 100%

 

[~~~^~~~]

Wow... I agree with PuffDriver. Senior es muy correcto.

 

[DrewBlows]

Airplanes mean nothing without vacancies.

No one gains anything from a merged fleet without vacancies. If an NWA guy is given a seniority number that would allow him to hold 757/767 on a combined list instead of an A320 on his current list is doesn't matter until there is a vacancy. The same holds true the other direction. If a DAL guy is given a seniority number that would allow him to hold 747 on a combined list instead of 757/767 (or even 777) on his current list he can't actually go to the 747 until there is a vacancy.

NWA guys obviously think they bring more vacancies (retirements) to the table. With a ratio integration, half of all vacancies will be filled by each companies pilots. Is that fair if 60% of vacancies are brought by NWA pilots (retiring or otherwise)? 70%? 80%?

What's fair?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Drew,

Guess you have missed the posts about Delta's advance entitlements. In the last six months there have been three. The last had more than 500 openings with more than 100 Captain slots, most of those were widebodies.

I do not know why NWA pilots think the DAL list is stagnant when Delta is running classes of 50 new hires every two weeks and still short on pilots.

Others have posted the staffing requirements for the 777-200LR's, I think was 30 pilots per jet. That 30 is multiplied down the list in the 765, 767ER, 767, 737, MD88 categories. The result will be probably thousands of "openings" and the smallest Delta jet is bigger than a A319, or DC9.

Further, "word" is that there are going to be more 777's ordered.

Then when the retirements start, there is only a three to five year lag before the total number of Delta retirements exceeds the NWA retirements by a large number.

Then you can add to those openings some folks who just will not commute to a DC9 gig up north. Delta hires a high percentage of MBA types who have better options than sitting #11,000 in KMSP. Many of those new hires are on the 767 & ER. Probably only a handful would leave, but it is more than NWA is going to retire in the next three years.

The crystal ball can be clouded by all of these X factors. I think Delta brings much more to the table, the NWA guys think their 1,000 retirements are the ace in the hole. Really this is just "noise" since none of us can bank on the future in this business right now. The big picture items we have to look at (and I'm guessing you are a new hire)

• Can the new airline compete better in a world of wholesale jet A at $3.00+
• Can the new airline grow
• What are your career expectations and do your expectations increase or decrease
• Would the combined airline rationalize feeder flying in such a way to put more 100+ seat jets in the market? (This open item is probably your upgrade - not the widebody furball)

 

[nwaredtail]

So in total (including the 757 since it pays the same rate as the 767) DAL has 54.3% widebody paying aircraft while NWA has 37.6% widebody paying aircraft.

Really? I believe the 767's, except for the 767-400 ,are paid the same as your 757. So only 6% are widebody paying aircraft. We have a ton more widebody paying positions, which we will get credit for.

In addition, due to widebody's having higher staffing than narrowbody's, here are the current staffing numbers for DAL: 61% of our captains get widebody pay and 67% of our FOs get widebody pay.

Wrong again, only pilots flying the 777 & 767-400ER get widebody pay. At NWA, pilots flying the 747-400, 747-200, A330-200,A330-300 get widebody pay.

As you can see, DAL is actually giving up a lot with our relative seniority proposal.

I agree Delta pilots will have to give up a lot to merge with the lowest cost, lowest debt, highest margin and most profitable legacy carrier out there. Finally, we all agree on something.

By the way, these are the numbers as they stand today, not including deliveries since DAL and NWA both have several aircraft on order, they are basically a wash.[/QUOTE]

You need to give Lee Moak a call and tell him that!

 

[Tantrum]

Am I missing something....when did a 767 become a narrowbody aircraft? You do realize that our 757/767 rate is almost identical to your A330 rate right? So I guess that means you only have 31 747s and we only have 30 777/767-400 since everything else is a narrowbody. Give me a frickin break. Whatever, I don't care...it's pointless to argue on here anyway.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I believe the 767's, except for the 767-400 ,are paid the same as your 757. So only 6% are widebody paying aircraft. We have a ton more widebody paying positions, which we will get credit for.

Wrong again, only pilots flying the 777 & 767-400ER get widebody pay. At NWA, pilots flying the 747-400, 747-200, A330-200,A330-300 get widebody pay.

12 YR Rates

DAL 757 $160 CA / $109 FO
NWA A330 $162 CA / $110 FO

Now lets compare "narrow body"
DAL 737 $154 CA / $105 FO
NWA 757 $144 CA / $98 FO
DAL MD88 $142 CA / $97 FO

Delta's wide body 757 rates are documented above from the airline pilot central board. DAL's guppy pays more than your 757.

The facts indicate that Delta's 757's are paid at widebody rates and that NWA would have to be brought up to Delta's standard. The MD88 at Delta pays within two dollars of your 757's and that's Delta's smallest jet.

We have a ton more widebody paying positions, which we will get credit for.

What does this mean? Credit with who? Is this a position for arbitration?

By paycheck and equipment type the NWA pilots would not do as well as the relative seniority already offered. I'm surprised they want arbitration....