NWA/DAL solving the seniority issue

[DrewBlows]

Airplanes mean nothing without vacancies.

No one gains anything from a merged fleet without vacancies. If an NWA guy is given a seniority number that would allow him to hold 757/767 on a combined list instead of an A320 on his current list is doesn't matter until there is a vacancy. The same holds true the other direction. If a DAL guy is given a seniority number that would allow him to hold 747 on a combined list instead of 757/767 (or even 777) on his current list he can't actually go to the 747 until there is a vacancy.

NWA guys obviously think they bring more vacancies (retirements) to the table. With a ratio integration, half of all vacancies will be filled by each companies pilots. Is that fair if 60% of vacancies are brought by NWA pilots (retiring or otherwise)? 70%? 80%?

What's fair?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Drew,

Guess you have missed the posts about Delta's advance entitlements. In the last six months there have been three. The last had more than 500 openings with more than 100 Captain slots, most of those were widebodies.

I do not know why NWA pilots think the DAL list is stagnant when Delta is running classes of 50 new hires every two weeks and still short on pilots.

Others have posted the staffing requirements for the 777-200LR's, I think was 30 pilots per jet. That 30 is multiplied down the list in the 765, 767ER, 767, 737, MD88 categories. The result will be probably thousands of "openings" and the smallest Delta jet is bigger than a A319, or DC9.

Further, "word" is that there are going to be more 777's ordered.

Then when the retirements start, there is only a three to five year lag before the total number of Delta retirements exceeds the NWA retirements by a large number.

Then you can add to those openings some folks who just will not commute to a DC9 gig up north. Delta hires a high percentage of MBA types who have better options than sitting #11,000 in KMSP. Many of those new hires are on the 767 & ER. Probably only a handful would leave, but it is more than NWA is going to retire in the next three years.

The crystal ball can be clouded by all of these X factors. I think Delta brings much more to the table, the NWA guys think their 1,000 retirements are the ace in the hole. Really this is just "noise" since none of us can bank on the future in this business right now. The big picture items we have to look at (and I'm guessing you are a new hire)

• Can the new airline compete better in a world of wholesale jet A at $3.00+
• Can the new airline grow
• What are your career expectations and do your expectations increase or decrease
• Would the combined airline rationalize feeder flying in such a way to put more 100+ seat jets in the market? (This open item is probably your upgrade - not the widebody furball)

 

[nwaredtail]

So in total (including the 757 since it pays the same rate as the 767) DAL has 54.3% widebody paying aircraft while NWA has 37.6% widebody paying aircraft.

Really? I believe the 767's, except for the 767-400 ,are paid the same as your 757. So only 6% are widebody paying aircraft. We have a ton more widebody paying positions, which we will get credit for.

In addition, due to widebody's having higher staffing than narrowbody's, here are the current staffing numbers for DAL: 61% of our captains get widebody pay and 67% of our FOs get widebody pay.

Wrong again, only pilots flying the 777 & 767-400ER get widebody pay. At NWA, pilots flying the 747-400, 747-200, A330-200,A330-300 get widebody pay.

As you can see, DAL is actually giving up a lot with our relative seniority proposal.

I agree Delta pilots will have to give up a lot to merge with the lowest cost, lowest debt, highest margin and most profitable legacy carrier out there. Finally, we all agree on something.

By the way, these are the numbers as they stand today, not including deliveries since DAL and NWA both have several aircraft on order, they are basically a wash.[/QUOTE]

You need to give Lee Moak a call and tell him that!

 

[Tantrum]

Am I missing something....when did a 767 become a narrowbody aircraft? You do realize that our 757/767 rate is almost identical to your A330 rate right? So I guess that means you only have 31 747s and we only have 30 777/767-400 since everything else is a narrowbody. Give me a frickin break. Whatever, I don't care...it's pointless to argue on here anyway.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I believe the 767's, except for the 767-400 ,are paid the same as your 757. So only 6% are widebody paying aircraft. We have a ton more widebody paying positions, which we will get credit for.

Wrong again, only pilots flying the 777 & 767-400ER get widebody pay. At NWA, pilots flying the 747-400, 747-200, A330-200,A330-300 get widebody pay.

12 YR Rates

DAL 757 $160 CA / $109 FO
NWA A330 $162 CA / $110 FO

Now lets compare "narrow body"
DAL 737 $154 CA / $105 FO
NWA 757 $144 CA / $98 FO
DAL MD88 $142 CA / $97 FO

Delta's wide body 757 rates are documented above from the airline pilot central board. DAL's guppy pays more than your 757.

The facts indicate that Delta's 757's are paid at widebody rates and that NWA would have to be brought up to Delta's standard. The MD88 at Delta pays within two dollars of your 757's and that's Delta's smallest jet.

We have a ton more widebody paying positions, which we will get credit for.

What does this mean? Credit with who? Is this a position for arbitration?

By paycheck and equipment type the NWA pilots would not do as well as the relative seniority already offered. I'm surprised they want arbitration....

 

[viper548]

If management really wants this to go through they should tie a very large aircraft order to it
-20 777LR
-20 787
-20 A330
-60 737's

 

[737 Pylt]

Please don't spew facts to the general and 737pileof$hit, they don't want to hear them. Looks like CAL will be our best choice, looking at DAL's financials.

Heyas red:
You practicing your gear swinging techniques?
Remember, gear up, shut up!

737

 

[Noserider76]

Am I missing something....when did a 767 become a narrowbody aircraft? You do realize that our 757/767 rate is almost identical to your A330 rate right? So I guess that means you only have 31 747s and we only have 30 777/767-400 since everything else is a narrowbody. Give me a frickin break. Whatever, I don't care...it's pointless to argue on here anyway.

You're right it's pointless to argue with some of these guys. Good posts though.

He also forgot to tell you that his 757s pay about the same as DLs MD-88s and the 787s on order (at least a year away) pay just a hair more than DL's 757/767 and quite a bit less than the 767-400. It is much more convienient to forget those things when you want no part of any compromise and just want to keep repeating "SLI is everything."

 

[737 Pylt]

You're right it's pointless to argue with some of these guys. Good posts though.

He also forgot to tell you that his 757s pay about the same as DLs MD-88s and the 787s on order (at least a year away) pay just a hair more than DL's 757/767 and quite a bit less than the 767-400. It is much more convienient to forget those things when you just want to keep repeating "SLI is everything."

You mean DOH is everything..........
These guys at NWA cant even get along with each other, so how do you expect them to play nice with anyone else? How many arbitrations over the past 20 years???

737

 

[DTW320]

12 YR Rates

DAL 757 $160 CA / $109 FO
NWA A330 $162 CA / $110 FO

Now lets compare "narrow body"
DAL 737 $154 CA / $105 FO
NWA 757 $144 CA / $98 FO
DAL MD88 $142 CA / $97 FO

Delta's wide body 757 rates are documented above from the airline pilot central board. DAL's guppy pays more than your 757.

The facts indicate that Delta's 757's are paid at widebody rates and that NWA would have to be brought up to Delta's standard. The MD88 at Delta pays within two dollars of your 757's and that's Delta's smallest jet.
What does this mean? Credit with who? Is this a position for arbitration?

By paycheck and equipment type the NWA pilots would not do as well as the relative seniority already offered. I'm surprised they want arbitration....

The problem with your logic is your comparisons are deliberately skewed. The PROPER comparison would be:
DAL MD88 to NWA DC9
DAL 737 to NWA A320
DAL 75/76 to NWA 757
DAL 767400 to NWA A330
DAL 777 to NWA 744

When you compare those rates guess what? DAL is 10 to 11% higher (except the 777 which is only 6% higher) just like everyone has known since the day the post BK contracts were signed. When compared Properly the facts suggest that your 767 is payed like a narrowbody, not the other way around. You guys continue to ignore this fact.

 

[General Lee]

No one gains anything from a merged fleet without vacancies. If an NWA guy is given a seniority number that would allow him to hold 757/767 on a combined list instead of an A320 on his current list is doesn't matter until there is a vacancy. The same holds true the other direction. If a DAL guy is given a seniority number that would allow him to hold 747 on a combined list instead of 757/767 (or even 777) on his current list he can't actually go to the 747 until there is a vacancy.

NWA guys obviously think they bring more vacancies (retirements) to the table. With a ratio integration, half of all vacancies will be filled by each companies pilots. Is that fair if 60% of vacancies are brought by NWA pilots (retiring or otherwise)? 70%? 80%?

What's fair?

Drew,

We have 3 777LRs coming this year (LR equals Long Range, equals lots of Captains---2 per ultra long flight), and we get 6 777LRs within 3 months starting at the end of this year (Dec 31st to Mar 31st of 09). How many Captains will that represent? We also get 6 737-700s, just completed getting 17 757-200ERs, and we have more orders for those 73NGs (25 total 737-700s and more 737-800s). And, of course, there are the MD90s, which are out there and we are the only major flier of them. Saudia just put 28 up for sale, and there are many more in China and Japan, some of which we have already looked at. The rumor I heard was that they would slowly replace the DC9-40s/50s. So, we are upgrading due to actual expansion, not waiting for a plane that hasn't even flown yet. We have planes coming NOW, and our INTL expansion adds the need for even more pilots. You guys are bringing new planes in the FUTURE, and FUTURE retirements. We are brining future airplanes (777s, 737-700s, MD90s), and planes/expansion NOW.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DTW320]

Am I missing something YES....when did a 767 become a narrowbody aircraft?When you agreed to narrowbody payrates on it! Again, your 767 pays 11% more than NWA 757...just like every comparable a/c comparison in the fleets.... You do realize that our 757/767 rate is almost identical to your A330 rate right?You do realize that it is 11% more than NWA 757 right? Apples/Oranges...seems to be a recurring theme with you guys...and things like math and % don't seem to be a strong point for all you DL MBA's that we've been told make up the majority of your pilots. So I guess that means you only have 31 747s and we only have 30 777/767-400 since everything else is a narrowbody. Give me a frickin break. Whatever, I don't care...it's pointless to argue on here anyway.

At least you didn't call it debating like Generally. Debating requires the use of facts.

 

[General Lee]

The problem with your logic is your comparisons are deliberately skewed. The PROPER comparison would be:
DAL MD88 to NWA DC9
DAL 737 to NWA A320
DAL 75/76 to NWA 757
DAL 767400 to NWA A330
DAL 777 to NWA 744

When you compare those rates guess what? DAL is 10 to 11% higher (except the 777 which is only 6% higher) just like everyone has known since the day the post BK contracts were signed. When compared Properly the facts suggest that your 767 is payed like a narrowbody, not the other way around. You guys continue to ignore this fact.

Well looky here. I looked it up. The 764 pays more than your 744. We have 21 of them too, which is more than your number of 747-400s. They all fly INTL , which means they get the INTL override too. The 764 pays $19 more per hour than the A330. Why did you decide to compare that to your A330, which actually should be pared up with the 767, and I guess our 757. Skewed indeed.......

We brought our 757 rates up to our 767 rates. How much more does the A330 pay than the 767? How much more does the 764 pay than the A330? A lot more I believe. It pays $20 more an hour than the 767. You are the one who are skewed. Get the facts straight.

Well looky here.... I looked it up. Our 764 pays more than your 744. We have 21 of them too, which is larger than your 744 number. And, our 764 pays about $19 more an hour than your A330. Why did you pare them up with our 764? It is a lot closer to our 767, and that means closer to our 757. Talk about skewed......get your facts straight, again.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

The problem with your logic is your comparisons are deliberately skewed. The PROPER comparison would be:
DAL MD88 to NWA DC9
DAL 737 to NWA A320
DAL 75/76 to NWA 757
DAL 767400 to NWA A330
DAL 777 to NWA 744

When you compare those rates guess what? DAL is 10 to 11% higher (except the 777 which is only 6% higher) just like everyone has known since the day the post BK contracts were signed. When compared Properly the facts suggest that your 767 is payed like a narrowbody, not the other way around. You guys continue to ignore this fact.

Hey no facts please, your screwing up the integrity of FI!! Lets not leave out that the only reason why NWA rates are lower is because NWA kept pensions and DAL sold theirs out. So comparing payrates after both companies took paycuts is stupid. What would the DAL rates be if they would have kept their pensions? General i found your new avatar it will be up shortly~~~

 

[~~~^~~~]

DTW:

So your arguement is that the same is different because it is not different by 11%. Let me guess, public schools followed by a non business major.

You guys crack me up. If this goes to arbitration the panelists eyes will be crossed after you explain that the same isn't the same because it is not different enough.