NWA/DAL solving the seniority issue

[DTW320]

deleted

Don't ya just love it when you get to read his post before he deletes it in fear.

 

[jke406]

Hey no facts please, your screwing up the integrity of FI!! Lets not leave out that the only reason why NWA rates are lower is because NWA kept pensions and DAL sold theirs out. So comparing payrates after both companies took paycuts is stupid. What would the DAL rates be if they would have kept their pensions? General i found your new avatar it will be up shortly~~~

Exactly. Delta guys already bought their higher rates by losing their DB plan.

Now you think NWA should get Delta's pay, DC plan, keep their pensions AND get a leg up on seniority?

No wonder those Delta guys are realizing what a crappy deal it is for them.

 

[Noserider76]

The problem with your logic is your comparisons are deliberately skewed. The PROPER comparison would be:
DAL MD88 to NWA DC9
DAL 737 to NWA A320
DAL 75/76 to NWA 757
DAL 767400 to NWA A330
DAL 777 to NWA 744

When you compare those rates guess what? DAL is 10 to 11% higher (except the 777 which is only 6% higher) just like everyone has known since the day the post BK contracts were signed. When compared Properly the facts suggest that your 767 is payed like a narrowbody, not the other way around. You guys continue to ignore this fact.

Don't get me wrong, I think we're all going to have to learn to get along but it gets old seeing the "facts" skewed to one side.

You say DL 767s pay narrow body rates but the fact it seems you would like to ignore is that the DL fleet of 247 757/767s pays only $2/hr less than the NW fleet of 32, much larger, A-330s. It's not the size of the airplane it's the pay. The fact is DL brings many more high paying jobs to the table of which NW guys will bid when/if the SLI is agreed to.

 

[General Lee]

At least you didn't call it debating like Generally. Debating requires the use of facts.

Wow, look up the rates on Airlinepilotcentral. Talk about crazy---why are you paring up the A330 with our 764? Not even close. Are you debating here, or HOPING? The 767 (and that means our numerous 757s) are next to your A330 pay rates. Our 764 pays more than your 744. Wow, you missed the boat on that one....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

Don't get me wrong, I think we're all going to have to learn to get along but it gets old seeing the "facts" skewed to one side.

You say DL 767s pay narrow body rates but the fact it seems you would like to ignore is that the DL fleet of 247 757/767s pays only $2/hr less than the NW fleet of 32, much larger, A-330s. It's not the size of the airplane it's the pay. The fact is DL brings many more high paying jobs to the table of which NW guys will bid when/if the SLI is agreed to.

What would your payrates be if you hadn't sold out the pensions? Didn't it go as a trade off? NWA guys took a bigger hit in hourly pay but kept pensions, DAL cut pensions but gave extra hourly pay. Payrates are different just like circumstances were different.

 

[Noserider76]

What would your payrates be if you hadn't sold out the pensions? Didn't it go as a trade off? NWA guys took a bigger hit in hourly pay but kept pensions, DAL cut pensions but gave extra hourly pay. Payrates are different just like circumstances were different.

You got me but what does the fact that NW guys kept their pensions do for a DL person except take money out of his pocket to pay for it after the merger?

How's training going by the way? I thought NW had an outstanding training dept when I was there. They went out of their way to pair guys up with a Capt (mine had been a -9 guy for 8 or so years) which made all the difference for a slow guy like me.

 

[Superpilot92]

You got me but what does the fact that NW guys kept their pensions do for a DL person except take money out of his pocket to pay for it after the merger.
How's training going by the way? I thought NW had an outstanding training dept when I was there. They went out of their way to pair guys up with a Capt (mine had been a -9 guy for 8 or so years) which made all the difference for a slow guy like me.

The pension pay has nothing to do with the payrates post merger. I was just pointing out that basing SLI off of payrates shouldn't even be a consideration because the payrates were set based on the sacrifices made by each pilot group post 911.

Training is great the instructors are fantastic. You're right the set up of having CAs with you in training is nice. Thanks for asking :beer:

 

[737 Pylt]

Don't ya just love it when you get to read his post before he deletes it in fear.

Don't worry, jerk406 just has to sign out and sign in as either jmoney or tanker clown.
Can you imagine entertaining his therapist appointments are?:laugh:

737

 

[Schwanker]

Payrates are not relavent as they change every contract.

IMPORTANT FACT:
Payrates are a flash in the pan. NWA payrates took a drastic hit in BK to save the pension. Fact is (think career expectations) NWA hourly pay rates will be on par with leading industry rates at the signing of our next contract. To discount this is demonstrating your disconnect from reality.

Couple this fact with the next fact: a new hire at NWA will make the top 1/2 the SL in the next 10-15 years in the NWA stand-alone plan. Shoving 7000 pilots infront of this newhire with relatively zero added retirements in the same 10-15 period will result in severe career stagnation.

Schwanker

 

[DTW320]

We brought our 757 rates up to our 767 rates. How much more does the A330 pay than the 767? How much more does the 764 pay than the A330? A lot more I believe. It pays $20 more an hour than the 767. You are the one who are skewed. Get the facts straight.

Well looky here.... I looked it up. Our 764 pays more than your 744. We have 21 of them too, which is larger than your 744 number. And, our 764 pays about $19 more an hour than your A330. Why did you pare them up with our 764? It is a lot closer to our 767, and that means closer to our 757. Talk about skewed......get your facts straight, again.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Generally, I hope you stay out of the stock market, because it is apparent that you think a $100 stock that goes up $5 has made more than a $5 stock that goes up $3. $5 is better than $3 right???

If you "brought up" your 757 rate to 767 rate, but it is still the same % higher than the NWA rate as other "non brought up" rates, then was the 757 brought up or was the 767 brought down?

As for the pensions, I've heard it both ways from you guys now. Which is it? Does losing your pension mean you need consideration for that in an SLI or were you all essentially made whole by the claim sale and note? Can't have it both ways. But it's sure been tried here.

 

[General Lee]

IMPORTANT FACT:
Payrates are a flash in the pan. NWA payrates took a drastic hit in BK to save the pension. Fact is (think career expectations) NWA hourly pay rates will be on par with leading industry rates at the signing of our next contract. To discount this is demonstrating your disconnect from reality.

Couple this fact with the next fact: a new hire at NWA will make the top 1/2 the SL in the next 10-15 years in the NWA stand-alone plan. Shoving 7000 pilots infront of this newhire with relatively zero added retirements in the same 10-15 period will result in severe career stagnation.

Schwanker

IMPORTANT FACT: You can't tell the future. Continuing high oil could force the parking of your DC9s sooner, and that could affect your SL in a bad way. FACT: SARS may reappear. FACT: You have no real facts here.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Schwanker]

IMPORTANT FACT: You can't tell the future. Continuing high oil could force the parking of your DC9s sooner, and that could affect your SL in a bad way. FACT: SARS may reappear. FACT: You have no real facts here.


Bye Bye--General Lee

FACT:
I've explained our SCOPE clause to you before and;
FACT:
You choose to ignore it to try and bolster your position.

By the way, did you know a paid for DC-9 costs approx $35 less per seat per segment than a leased B-737 (at attractive rates)? Maybe we'll have to pull some DC-9s out of the desert to replace some of your new costly 737s.

Schwanker

 

[Superpilot92]

IMPORTANT FACT: You can't tell the future. Continuing high oil could force the parking of your DC9s sooner, and that could affect your SL in a bad way. FACT: SARS may reappear. FACT: You have no real facts here.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I assume you believe that your DC9-80s wont be effected by fuel costs? Where are your facts GL before you start pointing fingers? You just said "you cant tell the future" yet you predict in the future the DC9s will be parked "sooner" Hi pot meet kettle!!

 

[General Lee]

Generally, I hope you stay out of the stock market, because it is apparent that you think a $100 stock that goes up $5 has made more than a $5 stock that goes up $3. $5 is better than $3 right???

If you "brought up" your 757 rate to 767 rate, but it is still the same % higher than the NWA rate as other "non brought up" rates, then was the 757 brought up or was the 767 brought down?

As for the pensions, I've heard it both ways from you guys now. Which is it? Does losing your pension mean you need consideration for that in an SLI or were you all essentially made whole by the claim sale and note? Can't have it both ways. But it's sure been tried here.

DTW319,

You skewed the facts to begin with. Don't tell me you didn't. You tried to compare the rates between our 764 and your A330, thanks to them being like sized. Well, our 764 pays more than anything you have, period. Don't tell me you forgot that. And, our 757 pays 2 dollars less an hour than your A330, and we have three times as many 757s as you have A330s. (not counting our 767s, which we have twice as many)

The real facts are that we pay a lot more, have more planes, and more widebodies. We did bring up the 757 rates in 1999 to the 767, and if we lost a certain percentage during our BK, wouldn't that be the same on the 767 as the 757? IF the pay rates on the 757 were lower than the 767, would they still be lower after the pay cut? So, we DID bring the 757 rates UP. The main difference after the C2K contract was the INTL perdiem was more on the 767 INTL (and select 757 INTL flights) The per hour pay rate was brought UP on the 757 to match the 767. The INTL per diem and night override is what was higher--and that counted on both the 75 and 76. That is what took the largest hit after BK. But, you still can't say our 757 was not brought up to the 767 base pay rate. It was. Back then we had more 767-300s doing domestic routes too, including 13 767-300ER domesitc birds only doing domestic (now INTL), and 14 767-200s doing only domestic.

And, I would stay out of the stock market now until it bottoms out.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DTW320]

FACT:
I've explained our SCOPE clause to you before and;
FACT:
You choose to ignore it to try and bolster your position.

By the way, did you know a paid for DC-9 costs approx $35 less per seat per segment than a leased B-737 (at attractive rates)? Maybe we'll have to pull some DC-9s out of the desert to replace some of your new costly 737s.

Schwanker

FACT: That is exactly why Generally doesn't really debate....he trolls. Debate would require facts to be acknowledged and not ignored