XO Jet Hawkers

[BushwickBill]

Left seat guys will go to the left seat, period. There are several airframes that are unstaffed.

Interesting,I know of one FO who meets all the criteria to upgrade, including a dozen recs for upgrade. Yet he remains an FO and has flown with the first wave of Hawker captains that moved to the 300 and X fleet, when the initial 3 aircraft were parked. Certain a sign of things to come but it does leave quite a few individuals disenfranchised. Even more so now that a "reserve captain" clause has been added to the GOM. It also leaves these FOs in the rather awkward position of being having experience in type and sometimes in general as the captains they are paired with. All this in an addition to being more senior as well, that is if date of hire counts for anything.

 

[BushwickBill]

That's how it should work. Company seniority should rule, that way you don't end up with a USA Jet-like situation, where it was "So sorry, we're disposing of XXX aircraft and you're on it, so you're getting furloughed".

Are we talking about company seniority by date of hire or by some other metric?

 

[t-bone]

Not sure if you understood what I was implying. There are many street captains that were hired into the Hawker well after many of the X and 300 copilots were hired. Also, many copilots upgraded into the hawker and were hired after many X and 300 copilots. So how does that fit into the true seniority situation you fortuitously brought up? If you upgrade using a merit based system does this reset your date of hire?

Fair enough. I should have clarified that we don't operate under a true seniority system here. While what you said is entirely true, there are also almost 75 pilots hired into the other fleets AFTER those Hawker guys were hired. So in other words, it's a mess. The good news is nobody lost their job. The bad news is, our lack of a seniority system has reared its head again. Nobody should be surprised, they knew what they were getting involved with when they took the job here. We'll see what comes of the situation...

 

[imacdog]

Are we talking about company seniority by date of hire or by some other metric?

Date of hire is pretty standard although having a separate Captain and FO seniority list has its merits as well.

 

[BushwickBill]

Date of hire is pretty standard although having a separate Captain and FO seniority list has its merits as well.

Odd, as the captain I am flying with is more than 50 spots junior to myself. 1000 less hrs in type as well. Date of hire seems rather lacking, no?

 

[BushwickBill]

Fair enough. I should have clarified that we don't operate under a true seniority system here. While what you said is entirely true, there are also almost 75 pilots hired into the other fleets AFTER those Hawker guys were hired. So in other words, it's a mess. The good news is nobody lost their job. The bad news is, our lack of a seniority system has reared its head again. Nobody should be surprised, they knew what they were getting involved with when they took the job here. We'll see what comes of the situation...

A mess indeed. More Top Ramen it seems. I had hoped for an end to that. Oh well.

 

[imacdog]

Odd, as the captain I am flying with is more than 50 spots junior to myself. 1000 less hrs in type as well. Date of hire seems rather lacking, no?

It sure does. That's a shame.

 

[NJAowner]

n the "customer side" of things, we wwere told the Hawkers were being brought in to be more efifcient for some shorter (but not short) flights and flights with 2-4 pax. The expectation was the cost would be 65%-75% of the cost of a flight on the X/CL-300. ON my end I know that never came to be -- every time I got a quote for a trip the Hawker price was about 90% or more of the price of the X/CL-300. Initially I was told this was until they could figure out the cost structure and flights. But better to try and idea and bag it early if it doesn't work than lose lost of $$ trying to prove it is not a mistake.

 

[t-bone]

If you're going to fail at something, fail quickly and move on. I guess that's what is going on here.

 

[gunfyter]

If you're going to fail at something, fail quickly and move on. I guess that's what is going on here.

:laugh: Fail early and often ... where have I heard that before?


I think it was when I was in school the joke was " fail early... avoid the rush in June...."

 

[say again]

So the Hawker is as/more expensive to operate than the 300?

 

[BushwickBill]

It sure does. That's a shame.

Quite. Sadly it seems I may have missed the window for a full time captain position. Now the prospect of reserve captain is looming for all of us. 200 dollars a day extra to do the captains job. It makes me wonder if the captains will note that some of their rotations are spent as SICs. It does not seem out of the question for management to take notice of this as well. In fact I would feel uncomfortable undercutting the rate of a salaried captain. That is if I am ever given the opportunity.

What's worse is that with no feedback as to why I am in my current situation it seems difficult to find any sort of solution. I have simply been left in the dark and told that things would be happening soon and that I was doing a great job. Now with the Hawker captains lining up for the position I have sought for well over a year, the writing is indeed on the wall and it is quite clear.

 

[propsarebest]

n the "customer side" of things, we wwere told the Hawkers were being brought in to be more efifcient for some shorter (but not short) flights and flights with 2-4 pax. The expectation was the cost would be 65%-75% of the cost of a flight on the X/CL-300. ON my end I know that never came to be -- every time I got a quote for a trip the Hawker price was about 90% or more of the price of the X/CL-300. Initially I was told this was until they could figure out the cost structure and flights. But better to try and idea and bag it early if it doesn't work than lose lost of $$ trying to prove it is not a mistake.

Part of the problem is that the Hawker never really found a home here. There are multiple reasons for this. The sales people simply used the airplane as a cheaper alternative to the 750 and the 300. Add in lots of repo legs that were required and you have a trip that almost cost as much as an X. The plan was to park a handful of the Hawkers on each coast and let them take the short crappy trips so that the X's and 300's could do what they do best- transcons. This NEVER happened. To this day we still have X's and 300's doing crap like FLL-MCO and VNY-SJC- all with 1-2 pax. These are trips that are perfect for the hawker.

Another reason (and I am gonna take some flak for this) is the group of pilots that were hired to fly the hawkers. Don't get me wrong, they are all great people, but they brought a click to the company that wasn't here before; most were ex Talon air guys/gals. They all knew each other and stuck to themselves. They have since blended in well with the other pilots here. They are all great to work with.

In the end, it was an experiment that had a bad ending. I am still hoping that we find another short range aircraft to do the small stuff with (like a CJ3 or something). Buying 11 year old airplanes that sat for a year was a mistake. I am VERY VERY glad that we were able to absorb all of the displaced pilots. I am truly blessed to be able to work with a great bunch of pilots.

 

[AftCG182]

I am still hoping that we find another short range aircraft to do the small stuff with (like a CJ3 or something).

Or a Piaggio! imp:

 

[squonk]

Note to all who misread my posts: my intention behind each of my posts is not to inflame or bash NJA or any other provider -- my intention (after reading what is posted on here) is to provide facts from a different viewpoint -- as a consumer of private aviation services. Other than in sales meetings and literature (which I can discount), I do not get the "ra ra - we are great" cheerleading sessions many of you may attend your respective places of employment, nor the "hang in there it is getting much better" speeches. The posts are just my unbiased experience.

Do we have a pool for how long it takes JJ to post that I am not an owner. I"ll take the 2-4 hour window box. It is a Sunday morning and he is cleaning his thongs in a hotel bathroom somewhere.

So in today's climate what else is there to post on here but Ra-ra we're great or Hang in there buddy, you'll come back one day?

Serious question. Why do you hang out on a pilots board anyway? Isn't there a Owners board somewhere where you Big Daddy Warbuck's hang out and compare the finer points of fractional flying...from the owners seat?