Will SWA and AT truly merge?

[Lear70]

Just let the AirTran pilot group vote then. Staple or no deal.

That vote would easily pass by a large majority too.

I think you might be surprised...

Knowing that a better alternative is an option via arbitration and that staple is a worst-case scenario, I'd bet you the AirTran pilots would NOT vote a staple and would roll the dice in arbitration.

JMHO, but the internal message board sentiment has been pretty clear. Not greedy, happy to be part of the team, but we DO want something fair in the process.

:beer:

 

[WNC Flyer]

I think the SWA guys/gals on here are not understanding the way arbitration works. The AT guys are trying to explain it but it seems to fall on deaf ears.
The arbitrator is not going to look at what the pilot groups recieve from the third party (i.e. Company) That does not matter when it comes to senority. I have a feeling that this explanation will fall on deaf ears but it is worth trying again.
Seniority will be decided on where are you now and where can you expect to be at retirement. Pay, holidays, QOL issues will not be factored into the formulation of this list.
I understand how SWA pilots feel this is unfair towards them....but it is not. The SWA pilots are not losing anything by SWA (the company) paying other pilots (AT) pilots the same pay as they now recieve. SWA pilots do not lose anything but having SWA (The Company) extend current negotiated work rules to AT.
SO all these claims that AT are collecting a "Windfall" at the Exspence of SWA pilots is nonsense. After the sli no one is going to come up to a SWA pilot and demand anything from them.
Now if SWA got what it wants and stapled AT, SWA PILOTS mostly FO's will recieve a WINDFALL in a true sense. They will be recieveing CA slots at the exspense of current AT CA's.. After the SLI was awarded someone WOULD come and demand the AT CA to return to being an FO.

I know from the rhetoric already exspoused on this thread that SWA pilots will glaze over this explanation and still demand concessions from the AT pilots unjustly believing that himself the swa pilot gave the AT pilots all this money and QOL issues, when in fact the SWA pilots are not giving anything to the AT pilots. SWA the company is who is giving the pay and benefits.

So the belief that AT pilots are recieveing a windfall at the exspense of the SWA pilot group is nonsense.
If the voices on this board are a representation of what the pilot groups truly believe why even waste the time of having a nagotiating commitee and go straight to arbitration?

EN MORT MAIN

p.s. I personally believe if AT pilots allow anything besides relative seniority they will be sailing themselves short.

I'd like to thank the honorable Sen Claire McCaskill for posting on FI and helping us sort out this silly legislation.

 

[kwick]

Logically speaking, the list will likely be merged via a straight-up staple, as it should be. An arbitrator will likely realize that if a straight-up staple were voted on, it would pass by a large margin.

Stapling the AirTran pilots is the fairest thing in the world for everybody. Only a few hundred AT captains will be disappointed, as opposed to thousands disappointed that could literally destroy the company.

Staple AT and be done with it and continue to grow a great airline!

I think stapling the SWA pilots to the AirTran list will be the likely
result because AT has international routes and more growth
potential.

Let's get it over with and move forward.

Or, relative seniority can be agreed to without arbitration, and no SW
pilot would lose any pay, or Captain seat, or upgrade potential.

Sounds like some SW guys think that an arbitrator is going to
take away AirTran Captain seats and F/O upgrade
potential and give it to them.

That would be an obvious "windfall" that will never happen.

 

[ivauir]

I think stapling the SWA pilots to the AirTran list will be the likely
result because AT has international routes and more growth
potential.

Let's get it over with and move forward.

Or, relative seniority can be agreed to without arbitration, and no SW
pilot would lose any pay, or Captain seat, or upgrade potential.

Sounds like some SW guys think that an arbitrator is going to
take away AirTran Captain seats and F/O upgrade
potential and give it to them.

That would be an obvious "windfall" that will never happen.

Kwick,

Aren't you the guy who thought that AirTran had BIGGER airplanes?

Lay off of the flamebait. No arbitrator would give a pilot a 20 year improvement in their date of hire along with a 50% raise.

Fair and equitable cuts both ways. That is what "fair" means.

You guys are going to love it here if you don't blow it.

 

[vv100]

When I read about this "merger/ purchase" I keep reading about this co. called "Guadalupe Holdings"....why is SWA not just purchasing AT outright and instead using this holding co?

Because Guadalupe Holdings is NOT an "Airline"

Now dear Tranny's why is this important? :laugh:

Good luck, you are going to need it.

 

[Lear70]

Because Guadalupe Holdings is NOT an "Airline"

Now dear Tranny's why is this important? :laugh:

Good luck, you are going to need it.

mmmmkay, whatever, counselor... :yawn:

:lol:

 

[Cometman]

Because Guadalupe Holdings is NOT an "Airline"

Now dear Tranny's why is this important? :laugh:

Good luck, you are going to need it.

So, lets assume SWA keeps Airtran within this holding Company. And SWAPA allows the Company to operate them seperatly and also extends the 24 months allowed under their current contract. Would they still have to form one seniority list? If they do not have to join the lists why does Republic have to have one list for all their airlines?

 

[27 driver]

So, lets assume SWA keeps Airtran within this holding Company. And SWAPA allows the Company to operate them seperatly and also extends the 24 months allowed under their current contract. Would they still have to form one seniority list? If they do not have to join the lists why does Republic have to have one list for all their airlines?

SWAPA will want to merge the list even more in this scenario. If they keep the list and certs separate then where do you think all the growth will be. The higher cost or lower cost side? GK works for the shareholders....not for the pilots. He will do whatever is best for the share holders.

 

[Cometman]

SWAPA will want to merge the list even more in this scenario. If they keep the list and certs separate then where do you think all the growth will be. The higher cost or lower cost side? GK works for the shareholders....not for the pilots. He will do whatever is best for the share holders.

I understand that part , however, if they do not have to join the list, is it possible for the Company to give all the growth to SWA and stop the flying for the airline that is in the holding company little by little? If SWAPA extends the 24 months would that not give SWA more time to eliminate Airtran little by little, is that a possibility? If it is a possibility would that not give Airtran more reason to get a SLI complete. It might not happen that way but if it is a possibility then it could happen, especially if SWA is concerned with what they call their culture.

 

[redflyer65]

This is what I find most amazing about the whole process..

Prior to September, we had more than a few AAI pilots begging for a Southwest purchase and staple. (and I understand that after the AAI management beat down)

Now? They want it all. 80 percent pay increase with realitive seniority and the major increase in QOL that the Southwest contract brings. Not to mention company stability.

Kinda leaves one dumbfounded.

Again, what's in the deal for the Southwest pilots? Bueller?

 

[Ty Webb]

I understand that part , however, if they do not have to join the list, is it possible for the Company to give all the growth to SWA and stop the flying for the airline that is in the holding company little by little? If SWAPA extends the 24 months would that not give SWA more time to eliminate Airtran little by little, is that a possibility?.

Nope. Can't operate an alter ego airline. Plus, ATN-ALPA and SWAPA CBA applies to the new holding company(s) and requires a merger of SLI (ATN requires within 18 months).

 

[27 driver]

I understand that part , however, if they do not have to join the list, is it possible for the Company to give all the growth to SWA and stop the flying for the airline that is in the holding company little by little? If SWAPA extends the 24 months would that not give SWA more time to eliminate Airtran little by little, is that a possibility? If it is a possibility would that not give Airtran more reason to get a SLI complete. It might not happen that way but if it is a possibility then it could happen, especially if SWA is concerned with what they call their culture.

Definitely a possibility. But once again why would the shareholders give the growth the the airline with the higher costs. I doubt GK would keep his job long if he did that. They could maximize the Airtran side with the same type of flying with lower employee costs. I dare not speculate what will happen because none of us are privy to that info. I wish all of us the best. I want what is fair for all involved and to move on with my life.

 

[funnyman12]

Wow...some of you guys seem to support taking 2 healthy airlines and following the UsAirways/Amer West approach. Im sure operating 2 separate airlines with different contracts is a great move for all our careers. Its not gonna be a staple and not 100% relative sen either. Captain i was flying with has a buddy in SWAPA and told him that they are not going to propose a staple as it would reflect very negatively if this goes to arbitration. SWAPA is doing a meet and greet with Airtran pilots in ATL on Nov 30 and it will be interesting on the info they share with us. The fact that many on this forum think a staple is fair just demonstrates the fear the 10%'ers have.

 

[Cometman]

Nope. Can't operate an alter ego airline. Plus, ATN-ALPA and SWAPA CBA applies to the new holding company(s) and requires a merger of SLI (ATN requires within 18 months).

OK. Is it possible for the holding company to sell any of the assets prior to taking them under SWA and prior to joining the seniority lists? If not then what you are saying is that SWA has to join all the Airtran Pilots prior to selling any assets, so that if they did sell, lets say the 717's and had to lay off pilots some SWAPA pilots along with some Airtran pilots would be laided off. Is that correct. I used the 717's just as an example of a group of assets.

 

[redflyer65]

I understand that part , however, if they do not have to join the list, is it possible for the Company to give all the growth to SWA and stop the flying for the airline that is in the holding company little by little?

Cometman,

You are exactly right. All you have to do is look at what happened to Tristar back in the day. They didn't want to play nice, so they were gradually shrunk until they were realistic with their expectations.

Would Bond-McSkill change any of that if Gary wanted to work that way? I don't think so.