Will SWA and AT truly merge?

[redflyer65]

Why do the pilots at southwest believe they should be given something in this deal? Don't you already have the pay and benefits that will be dispensed to the AT pilot group. So in essence you dont want the AT pilots to be your equals you want to be treated "better" than them?
There seems to be a sense from the SWA pilot group that something is getting taken away from them... I'm trying to figure out what your precieved loss is.
Do you feel that everytime your company spends money you should get something from it? I.e. company bought some new tugs... what is in it for me?.
Seems to be a bit of greed and envy in the work force....i.e. those AT pilots are getting presents for christmas, where is my present. ME ME ME.

IMHO don't even try negotiating just take it to arbitration and save months of stalemated negotiations.

En Mort Main

So if Airtran bought Mesa tomorrow, you'd be OK with them getting full realitive seniority and increasing their pay, QOL, and everything else your better contract might give them? Wouldn't that be a windfall for them?

This has nothing to do with what the company spends it's money on.

 

[texman]

No, I think he, (along with the rest of us), is tired of listening to all the SWA bubbas cry "ME, ME, ME", all day long. You guys should read En Mort Main's posts again for a little dose of reality.

See all you "brothers" on the line.

It's not crying, just pride. AT girls and guys are the same. You guy's have to be part of the list by law, not because you deserve it. Just think if the law didn't apply what would happen then.

Now let's take this ten years from now. SWA+AT= great company to work for. We buy Delta. Where should we be in relationship to that list? They law will apply. Do we deserve to be on top or bottom? I think you just see both side showing a lot of pride and fear, thats all. Hell Delta might buy us.

 

[texman]

Mr. Main is just trying to get people pizzzzed off. He doesn't even know. FI is a website of 60% b-atching, 20% bull shizz, and 20% good facts.

 

[dicko]

It's not crying, just pride. AT girls and guys are the same. You guy's have to be part of the list by law, not because you deserve it. Just think if the law didn't apply what would happen then.

Now let's take this ten years from now. SWA+AT= great company to work for. We buy Delta. Where should we be in relationship to that list? They law will apply. Do we deserve to be on top or bottom? I think you just see both side showing a lot of pride and fear, thats all. Hell Delta might buy us.

Tex,

Since you're talking about the bottom of a seniority list and fear; Care to share just how close you are to the bottom of SWA's list and what you hope to gain in seniority from AirTran ?

I'm guessing that you are around the bottom 3 % at SWA. About a year and a half ? It is interesting when you talk about what people "deserve".

 

[texman]

Ok Dicko,

You are a person with a number that only gives you rights per tenure. You are a number right? It is only here lately that the M/B gives you and me the right to a fair and equitable integration of a seniority list.

So take your self out of the pilot position. If you were a manager at AT where do stand then? Who deserves what? Can you tell me your story, and what you think you deserve.

Yes, I have been with the company about three years. How about you? I assume you are a captain?

I don't know what to gain from AT in relationship to seniority. What I do know from a people stand point, we will gain some good people.

From a business stand point we should feel lucky to have A/M and B/M in place. Buy or be bought. If that was not in place, how would you tell the company that is buying you what you deserve? Think from a business stand point for a second.

 

[General Lee]

This is what I find most amazing about the whole process..

Prior to September, we had more than a few AAI pilots begging for a Southwest purchase and staple. (and I understand that after the AAI management beat down)

Now? They want it all. 80 percent pay increase with realitive seniority and the major increase in QOL that the Southwest contract brings. Not to mention company stability.

Kinda leaves one dumbfounded.

Again, what's in the deal for the Southwest pilots? Bueller?

Red,

What you are forgetting is that the people who want this done are Gary Kelly, and Wall St. They are the ones steering the ship. If they don't want to capsize it, they will make everyone equal. The DL pilots did NOT get much in return for a merger with NWA (a 5% initial raise) compared to the NWA guys, but DL did turn more profitable from the synergies, and SWA will too. At the end of the day, you will have a stronger airline, and that is good for everyone there. And, Aribtrators will decide the SLI, not SWAPA. Your lawyers and AT's lawyers will give their cases, and then you will find out your fate a few weeks or months later. That is the way it goes.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[jonjuan]

Red,

What you are forgetting is that the people who want this done are Gary Kelly, and Wall St. They are the ones steering the ship. If they don't want to capsize it, they will make everyone equal. The DL pilots did NOT get much in return for a merger with NWA (a 5% initial raise) compared to the NWA guys, but DL did turn more profitable from the synergies, and SWA will too. At the end of the day, you will have a stronger airline, and that is good for everyone there. And, Aribtrators will decide the SLI, not SWAPA. Your lawyers and AT's lawyers will give their cases, and then you will find out your fate a few weeks or months later. That is the way it goes.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Red needs to read this over and over and over. Then maybe she'll "get it."

 

[Dan Roman]

So if Airtran bought Mesa tomorrow, you'd be OK with them getting full realitive seniority and increasing their pay, QOL, and everything else your better contract might give them? Wouldn't that be a windfall for them?

This has nothing to do with what the company spends it's money on.

I'm missing something here. AirTran and SWA are both the same type of operation. Mesa is a regional feeder operation. Apples and oranges?

 

[ivauir]

Am I the only one that think this "Ty Webb" is not going to be happy working for Southwest?

I'm worried that he is representative of the AT pilots or their union leadership.

If so, rough times are ahead. Imagine 1700 pilots who can't be happy after a 50% raise!

 

[funnyman12]

50% raise means nothing if you get furloughed! A staple is unfair for the obvious reason that a 10% furlough at the new airline would result in half of the airtran guys losing their job. Aka TWA. If Airtran was not profitable there may me a tini argument in your staple thought.

 

[redflyer65]

Hey JonJuan,

What part of windfall do you not get? Kinda like the Airtran guys that were high fiving each other in the LGA terminal the morning of the acquisition announcement.

Roman,

I picked Mesa and Airtran because the pay differences and pilot longevity are similar to the AAI/SW deal. Pretty much apples to apples. But no one would touch it..funny.

General,

I appreciate your fairly rational post, I say that honestly. I do agree that it could be a great airline but I have a couple of questions for you. Beyond a 5 percent pay bump for the DL pilots, how much stock did the DL side get? Was it based on seniority or split evenly? I haven't heard many people discuss that angle and thought you might know.

Your right about Gary running the COMPANY merger. So far it hasn't gotten too involved lately with the SLI. Your a little off base as far as how SWAPA will be involved. SWAPA has the full power to negotiate the transition agreement, so they do hold the reins on that. There will be no JCBA like the DL merger. As a matter of fact, this acquisition is nothing like the DL/NW merger and for people to say differently are really lacking in the facts.

RF

 

[kwick]

I'm worried that he is representative of the AT pilots or their union leadership.

If so, rough times are ahead. Imagine 1700 pilots who can't be happy after a 50% raise!

Or, 4,000 pilots that can't be happy adding ATL, international flights, etc.
without having to lose any pay, or upgrade potential.

 

[texman]

Or, 4,000 pilots that can't be happy adding ATL, international flights, etc.
without having to lose any pay, or upgrade potential.

Kwick,

Talking about ATL. With 40% living in ATL, were does the rest of the transters commute from. Do they come from all over? Do a lot of the pilots live on the east coast?

 

[Ty Webb]

Am I the only one that think this "Ty Webb" is not going to be happy working for Southwest?

I don't think you're worried about that at all. What you're worried about is that you're not going to be happy after the merger. Ty will be fine, and I suspect you will be, too, if you stop worrying about everyone else and just worry about yourself.

 

[Quiet Flight]

Or, 4,000 pilots that can't be happy adding ATL, international flights, etc.
without having to lose any pay, or upgrade potential.

Can we please get over the "we bring ATL" argument? It's horrible.

ATL has ~200+ flights per day for AT.

PHX, LAS, MDW have about the same for SWA.

So everytime an AT pilot says "We" bring ATL, should a SWA guy say "We" bring PHX? OR MDW? Or LAS? Or DEN? Or HOU? Or the possibility of -800's to HNL and OGG? Etc...???

It's just one city.

And as I've stated previously, we the pilots of either company do not "bring" any thing to the SLI other than CBA's and a our respective seniority lists. Not cities, Int'l flying, aircraft, hats, flight bags, etc. CBA's and lists are all we have to offer one another as pilot groups. Period.

 

[Dash Power]

I don't think you're worried about that at all. What you're worried about is that you're not going to be happy after the merger. Ty will be fine, and I suspect you will be, too, if you stop worrying about everyone else and just worry about yourself.

Ty,


Whats the worst that can happen to me? Relative seniority.(won't happen) What am I losing?

What is the worst that can happen to you? Staple. (won't happen) What are you likely to lose? Somewhere in the middle.

The middle is where I gain and you lose SENIORITY.

Your welcome for the huge quality of life increase I have spent a good amount of time earning for you. And I thank you for the increase seniority you will be giving to all my SWA brothers and sisters. That is what a win/win situation is all about.

Together we are going to kick some serious booty in this crappy airline business. And we both gain because of our efforts.

So why am I worried......?

 

[Ty Webb]

I think you just made my point for me. . . . . . And the rest of your post is consists of doing exactly what our unions have asked us NOT to do.

TW

 

[BlueYonder]

The middle is where I gain and you lose SENIORITY.

.

Some seem to think that the only way they can get ahead is if someone else loses.

The improvement in pay for Airtran pilots will not be at the expense of a single SWA pilot. A loss of seniority will most certainly be at the expense of the Airtran pilots.

I wonder which option an arbitrator will consider to be "fair and equitable"

 

[MILPILOT17]

.

Some seem to think that the only way they can get ahead is if someone else loses.

The improvement in pay for Airtran pilots will not be at the expense of a single SWA pilot. A loss of seniority will most certainly be at the expense of the Airtran pilots.

I wonder which option an arbitrator will consider to be "fair and equitable"

I don't know, but I have a feeling we're going to find out. Good luck fellas!

 

[Dash Power]

I think you just made my point for me. . . . . . And the rest of your post is consists of doing exactly what our unions have asked us NOT to do.

TW

You are really a weird dude......

You have engaged with this more than most, if not all, others on this topic.

 

[Ty Webb]

You are really a weird dude......

Probably not . . . . You've been wrong about everything else; at least you're consistent. :laugh:

 

[labatt]

You are really a weird dude......

You have engaged with this more than most, if not all, others on this topic.

Just wait until you meet him!

 

[General Lee]

Hey JonJuan,

What part of windfall do you not get? Kinda like the Airtran guys that were high fiving each other in the LGA terminal the morning of the acquisition announcement.

Roman,

I picked Mesa and Airtran because the pay differences and pilot longevity are similar to the AAI/SW deal. Pretty much apples to apples. But no one would touch it..funny.

General,

I appreciate your fairly rational post, I say that honestly. I do agree that it could be a great airline but I have a couple of questions for you. Beyond a 5 percent pay bump for the DL pilots, how much stock did the DL side get? Was it based on seniority or split evenly? I haven't heard many people discuss that angle and thought you might know.

Your right about Gary running the COMPANY merger. So far it hasn't gotten too involved lately with the SLI. Your a little off base as far as how SWAPA will be involved. SWAPA has the full power to negotiate the transition agreement, so they do hold the reins on that. There will be no JCBA like the DL merger. As a matter of fact, this acquisition is nothing like the DL/NW merger and for people to say differently are really lacking in the facts.

RF

Red,

Fair and rational post? You bet, I AM A CHANGED MAN MY BROTHER!! Anyway, as far as the stock goes, it depended on your longevity, and I think the "average" amount was 3600 shares per pilot. Captains got a little more, junior FOs got a little less. I think the stock price back then was around $6 dollars, and it has fluctuated and is now at around $13-14. Thank Gawd I didn't sell any, but I know many who sold it all at around $6 thinking it could never go up. It may go up to $20 or more eventually after all of the mergers finish.

And, you're right, I don't exactly know how SWAPA is going to handle this with AT, but it would be foolish to have a B-scale, so we know that won't happen. It would be wise for them to get the highest rates possible for the 717 and 737, and since they are close in size (717 to 735), it shouldn't be far off.

As far as the SLI goes, SWAPA won't have much to do at all. That will very likely go to arbitration, and then the lawyers will have to fight it out. Roman was right when he said you comparing Mesa to AT vs SWA was like comparing apples to oranges. The arbitrators will take a look at both companies, and see how they compare. SWA has been around longer, so that will have an impact on the SLI, no doubt. Maybe the top 1/4th will all be SWA pilots. (?) But, from there the airlines look a lot a like, they are both profitable, they have about the same type of planes, and both bring a lot to the table. You can't keep minimizing what AT does for a "new" SWA. Sure, SWA is a profit monster, but AT brings even more SWA's way with more slots in very restrictive airports (LGA and new flights to DCA), and it opens up ATL, which is huge. That will all lead to a healthier company for you. But, if you are in the bottom 3/4s at SWA, you most likely will be affected with the SLI, in some way or the other. That is the way it goes. Have a good one.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ivauir]

It would be wise for them to get the highest rates possible for the 717 and 737, and since they are close in size (717 to 735), it shouldn't be far off.

Not exactly. For an apples to apples comparison you need to look at the complete fleets. We have hardly any 500's (we'll have way more 800s, with 175 seats, in the near future), and AirTran operates a fleet dominated by the 717. For a more apt comparison look at 117 seats vs 137.

Think of it this way: SWA operates a handful of 122 seat aircraft at a rate established for a 137 seat aircraft. AAI operates a handful of 137 seat aircraft at a rate established for a 117 seat aircraft.

I hope we do get a single rate across the fleet as it promotes efficiency, and reduces training events. Hopefully the markets opened by a smaller aircraft will offset the reduction in ASM's/aircraft and the ensuing reduction in revenue potential.

 

[islandhoper]

Red,

Fair and rational post? You bet, I AM A CHANGED MAN MY BROTHER!! Anyway, as far as the stock goes, it depended on your longevity, and I think the "average" amount was 3600 shares per pilot. Captains got a little more, junior FOs got a little less. I think the stock price back then was around $6 dollars, and it has fluctuated and is now at around $13-14. Thank Gawd I didn't sell any, but I know many who sold it all at around $6 thinking it could never go up. It may go up to $20 or more eventually after all of the mergers finish.

And, you're right, I don't exactly know how SWAPA is going to handle this with AT, but it would be foolish to have a B-scale, so we know that won't happen. It would be wise for them to get the highest rates possible for the 717 and 737, and since they are close in size (717 to 735), it shouldn't be far off.

As far as the SLI goes, SWAPA won't have much to do at all. That will very likely go to arbitration, and then the lawyers will have to fight it out. Roman was right when he said you comparing Mesa to AT vs SWA was like comparing apples to oranges. The arbitrators will take a look at both companies, and see how they compare. SWA has been around longer, so that will have an impact on the SLI, no doubt. Maybe the top 1/4th will all be SWA pilots. (?) But, from there the airlines look a lot a like, they are both profitable, they have about the same type of planes, and both bring a lot to the table. You can't keep minimizing what AT does for a "new" SWA. Sure, SWA is a profit monster, but AT brings even more SWA's way with more slots in very restrictive airports (LGA and new flights to DCA), and it opens up ATL, which is huge. That will all lead to a healthier company for you. But, if you are in the bottom 3/4s at SWA, you most likely will be affected with the SLI, in some way or the other. That is the way it goes. Have a good one.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Amen.....

 

[OldManPilot]

this is what i find most amazing about the whole process..

Prior to september, we had more than a few aai pilots begging for a southwest purchase and staple. (and i understand that after the aai management beat down)

now? They want it all. 80 percent pay increase with realitive seniority and the major increase in qol that the southwest contract brings. Not to mention company stability.

Kinda leaves one dumbfounded.

Again, what's in the deal for the southwest pilots? Bueller?

growth, growth, growth!!!!

 

[OldManPilot]

A couple of things, that may or may not be interesting to you all. You can put this in the rumor file but still. Two B717 simulators are headed to DAL in January. Soon after the acquisition is complete, DEN will open as a crew base including B717 and B737 crews. Since this is not an existing crew base either group staffs it will be interesting who gets to staff these airplanes. Each B737 parked at a SWA domicile that was an AT aircraft will eventually be an originator out of an existing crew base.

No Flame only rumors. Cheers, sort out who will fly out of DEN and how you think a fence woulda shouds coulda who cares, fences will be irrelevant there is a good chance things need to get sorted out sooner than later for pilots who do not have as many airplanes in ATL to crew to sort out where they will go.

Figure that out will ya and let me know what you decide? I have no idea.

Where are they getting the B717 sims?? The two we use are owned by Alteon not AirTran. I think I will have to call BS on this rumor. AirTran could not go without them for the time required to move them and get them re-certified.

 

[Ty Webb]

Just wait until you meet him!

Wanna go campin'?

:laugh:

 

[Lear70]

Run,,, I hear Banjo Music!

 

[ATLplt]

.

The improvement in pay for Airtran pilots will not be at the expense of a single SWA pilot. A loss of seniority will most certainly be at the expense of the Airtran pilots.

I wonder which option an arbitrator will consider to be "fair and equitable"

Well said. We'll all find out soon enough.