Will SWA and AT truly merge?

[Lowrider717]

Doe FI have software that lets us edit out posting that includes dick measuring. That would bring this 30 pager down to about 5.

 

[TxPilot0878]

No Such Thing!

What about our route structure and our loyal customers? Did you also know when you become productive like us, our and your future airline ticket prices will drop 50% in ATL. This is all because of SWA. .

C'mon...no such thing as a loyal customer I don't care who you are. People and businesses are loyal only to the bottom dollar. Many of the people you think are loyal will be on other carriers tomorrow. No one likes getting screwed or paying more...the service provided at southwest is better but not justified just to fly the name. The reason people fly swa is for the low price!

Southwest has for a very long time pulled a huge market share and been HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL for it. But it has outgrown that "PURITY" or as you identify an ideal "LOYALTY" phase.

Southwest overcharges in many markets...I have taken Airtran, American, and others over Southwest because they were CHEAPER...and the baggage fees still wouldn't come close....no NO LOYALTY!

I have no dog in this fight...but hopefully the merger will expand the low cost structure and bring the new company a huge amount of growth and longevity, and low cost competition....not domination of the market and increase in prices due to LESS COMPETITION.

Regards,

Tex

 

[Lear70]

You have to admit, Tex, some of these fares are RIDICULOUSLY low...

In order for Commercial Aviation to survive, fares needed to come up, and they have, in dribs and drabs, $5 here, $10 there, Checked bag fee here, etc. They will CONTINUE to come up as long as people get on the planes. When the planes stop filling up, the fare will go back down. Not PERFECTLY elastic, but supply and demand works, but only insofar as a product isn't priced BELOW its cost to produce it just to stay in the market, thus making EVERYONE lose money.

Long story short,,, fares needed to come up, they have, and airlines are posting profits again. They need to come up a bit more and restore the pay and benefits we had pre-9/11. Not what travelers want to hear, but another $15-20 would go a LONG way towards doing that...

 

[GuppyWN]

Fares are up over 60% over last year.

Gup

 

[slaquer5]

You have to admit, Tex, some of these fares are RIDICULOUSLY low...



Long story short,,, fares needed to come up, they have, and airlines are posting profits again. They need to come up a bit more and restore the pay and benefits we had pre-9/11. Not what travelers want to hear, but another $15-20 would go a LONG way towards doing that...

Your Kidding I hope. Go look at what the legacy charge where there is no LCC competition. Also go do some research as to what they have charged in some cities before several up-starts. Then after they ran them out of business.

 

[Lear70]

Fares are up over 60% over last year.

Gup

Good. Seems the few full revenue tix from TN to MCO I bought last year averaged about $90 each way including the fees and taxes, so 60% is $54 additional each way. Doesn't sound all that unfair when you start talking real numbers.

Even that $300 coast-to-coast fare (round trip) would be up $90 each way. Not what the traveler wants to hear, but when it would cost you almost $1,000 to drive it and 3 days each direction, spending 6 hours each way on a plane for HALF that amount, saving 4 days of driving, sounds fair enough to me...

YMMV

 

[Richard Gozinya]

If they can't reach a deal, the MC alone has the authority to request Mediation, then, failing that, arbitration.

Lear, mediation WILL happen before arbitration.

 

[Lear70]

Your Kidding I hope. Go look at what the legacy charge where there is no LCC competition. Also go do some research as to what they have charged in some cities before several up-starts. Then after they ran them out of business.

Well, that's the real key, isn't it? "where there is no LCC competition".

Of COURSE they can have higher fares where there's no competition, but how many city pairings DOMESTICALLY can you say that about? A dozen? MAJOR cities? Maybe?

Almost every MAJOR city has LCC competition. Most fares (and I had to buy most of my tickets at full revenue the last 3 years and traveled almost every week) to most cities in the U.S. I had to travel were MUCH lower the last few years than they were just 9 or 10 years ago.

In the last 4 years, almost every major carrier has posted losses, even as recently as 2009 when the oil was BACK to normal, wages were low, planes were full, but carriers were STILL losing money. Flash forward one year, a few fare hikes, some increased baggage fees, and boom! Almost everyone is profitable again. Might be something to that whole "fares needed to come up" argument.

Then again, I could be wrong... it's happened before... I'm just a pilot armchair quarterbacking financial decisions from the cheap seats.

 

[Lear70]

Lear, mediation WILL happen before arbitration.

I thought that's what I said...??

Negotiation fails, Mediation requested.

Mediation fails, Arbitration requested. (that whole "failing that" part of my statement).

Must have been lost in translation or my crappy writing skills, pick one.

Either way, I trust our Merger Committee to find a good middle ground. None of them are jerks or hot heads, some of them are nerdier than others (our resident numbers cruncher who I used to fly with and is a good guy, but I know is reading these posts so I'm poking a little fun at him), some are "Good ole boys" from Dallas (who is likely also reading these posts but never posts himself), but all-in-all, they have the pulse of the pilot group, were line guys just like the rest of us until they were pulled from the line for the MC, and know that the VAST majority of us are looking forward to joining the SWA team and don't mind a little "give and take" as long as it's a fair shake in the end.

I also would bet money that SWAPA has put a good set of people together who are intelligent, reasonable, and will want something that keeps us pulling together after it's all said and done. Not everyone will be happy, but I hope most will believe that it was done fairly when the dust settles.

The beer offer still stands, btw. :beer:

 

[johnsonrod]

Lear, mediation WILL happen before arbitration.

Rich,

That may be the route, but Arbitration will be the end result. A neutral will decide your fate, which is the way it should be. Seniority is forever. Little deals between MEC members and Negotiating Teams should be avoided. Just go right to the arbitration, and have a good lawyer. No hard feeling, just business.

 

[Richard Gozinya]

The beer offer still stands, btw. :beer:

Absolutely, I will continue to go out of my way to tell every Air Tran guy I come in contact with what he/she will be receiving under our rules. That is the Southwest way. I have gone completely out of my way to do that. When I rode your jump seat from DAL to BWI and back last week, everyone went out of their way to make me accommodate me. Like all else, it is a two way street! Even here.

Yes, when the dust settles, we will be on the same team. Just like GK said during the first days of this deal, until it is completed, we are competitors. We have to look out for our OWN best interests. Just like I expressed to you my disgust over remarks made here a few days ago, Atl will be a domicile soon enough. Full of Southwest Pilots from both of the companies. Those pilots will elect reps who will be on the BOD. In the next 10 years or so, pilots from the company formerly known as Air Tran will integrate into all of the committees. Their influence will have direct effect over all of our lives. Until this is done, we all will be looking out to protect our OWN best interests.

The protocol between our M&A comms will be coming out in the next few days and it says that mediation will come before arbitration. Arbitration will be a board of 3. Talks begin in Jan.

 

[Richard Gozinya]

When Air Tran becomes a wholey owned subsidiary, DFW won't exist any longer for you guys. All the flying will come through Love Field, as will our flying will start going through ATL.

 

[texman]

C'mon...no such thing as a loyal customer I don't care who you are. People and businesses are loyal only to the bottom dollar. Many of the people you think are loyal will be on other carriers tomorrow. No one likes getting screwed or paying more...the service provided at southwest is better but not justified just to fly the name. The reason people fly swa is for the low price!

Southwest has for a very long time pulled a huge market share and been HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL for it. But it has outgrown that "PURITY" or as you identify an ideal "LOYALTY" phase.

Southwest overcharges in many markets...I have taken Airtran, American, and others over Southwest because they were CHEAPER...and the baggage fees still wouldn't come close....no NO LOYALTY!

I have no dog in this fight...but hopefully the merger will expand the low cost structure and bring the new company a huge amount of growth and longevity, and low cost competition....not domination of the market and increase in prices due to LESS COMPETITION.

Regards,

Tex

I respect what you are saying. In the big picture there is such thing as a loyal customer.

 

[scoreboardII]

DFW won't exist any longer for you guys.

Don't be to sure about that...

 

[malibuVride]

So let me get this straight...I'm hearing we don't get a JCBA and we don't get to be part of the transition agreement? What am I missing here? I thought our contract had requirements that had to be followed by successors or whatever! What's the deal?

 

[johnsonrod]

So let me get this straight...I'm hearing we don't get a JCBA and we don't get to be part of the transition agreement? What am I missing here? I thought our contract had requirements that had to be followed by successors or whatever! What's the deal?

I would ask your reps about that. That doesn't sound right. You have your own contract at AT, and being merged in with someone else, you should have a transition agreement for protection. Also, you want a JCBA so you aren't the B-scale group in the end. Watch out!

 

[OldManPilot]

LMAO...not only do you think that 6 yr. AAI guys should keep their CA seat over 9 year SWA guys (at least it's somewhere in the universe of plausibility), now you are saying your "senior" F/O's (what is that, 5 yrs?) should upgrade ahead of senior SWA F/O's with 4 yrs. more longevity?!? Ladies and gentleman, Elvis has left the building! (and he took common sense with him when he went)

Amazed and Confused,
PapaWoody

Pappa... I totally agree. There is no way after the agreement no matter what base your at, the top F/O gets the upgrade... it doesn't matter what base they are located, it should be a bid process. If your top man and you bid 717 CPT in ATL... BINGO.. you get your choice. Please don't think all our AT guys are this silly. These are the .5%ers

 

[luv2fly]

I would ask your reps about that. That doesn't sound right. You have your own contract at AT, and being merged in with someone else, you should have a transition agreement for protection. Also, you want a JCBA so you aren't the B-scale group in the end. Watch out!

You heard right, its the difference in an acquisition and a merger. Also, throw in that this isn't 2 ALPA carriers and that it really isn't a "plug and play" type combination. A huge difference in size, pay, longevity, qol...etc. so its not really a combination of equals (and i don't mean that as a low blow) jmho.

 

[Sy-bill]

Also, you want a JCBA so you aren't the B-scale group in the end. Watch out!

As I have been saying.....arbitration is not good for the Airtran folks. SWA will benefit more from arbitration.

You heard right, its the difference in an acquisition and a merger. Also, throw in that this isn't 2 ALPA carriers and that it really isn't a "plug and play" type combination. A huge difference in size, pay, longevity, qol...etc. so its not really a combination of equals

Winner, winner chicken dinner!

 

[dicko]

You heard right, its the difference in an acquisition and a merger. Also, throw in that this isn't 2 ALPA carriers and that it really isn't a "plug and play" type combination. A huge difference in size, pay, longevity, qol...etc. so its not really a combination of equals (and i don't mean that as a low blow) jmho.

No.

AirTran MEC Officers and Merger Committee have been in Dallas for the last week . They began talks on the Transition Agreement on Monday.