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Will SWA and AT truly merge?

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Lear70 said:
HIGHLY unlikely.

The JCBA will be in place with 717 rates LONG before the SLI is done. Both AAI ALPA and SWAPA are out there in Dallas working on the Process Agreement right now. The "successful" mergers are ones done where the JCBA is finalized long before the SLI is ever done, both sides know it, and I highly doubt we'll see a process agreement that has the SLI happening before the JCBA. As such, we'll know the 717 rates long before the SLI is ever even CLOSE to being done.

Funny how the 4 attorneys (3 ALPA, 1 outside counsel) are disagreeing with you. Seeing as this is their actual JOB, and not just an armchair hobby, I'm going with their answer. Thanks for your input, however.
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I would politely disagree with you. We all know that it would be greatly in Airtran's favor to do a JCBA contract before a SLI agreement. I'm not so sure that it's in SWAPA's best interest to do that. You can negotiate a document, does not have to mean you enact it. This quote came from a recent Tribune article about two ALPA carriers (UAL/CAL).

Inflaming matters, according to United leaders, were comments by Jayson Baron, who leads Continental pilots at its Newark, N.J., hub. Addressing a September meeting of leaders from both unions, Baron allegedly threatened to "hold up negotiations for years" and keep United pilots tied to a bankruptcy-era contract they consider draconian unless they agreed to Continental's proposed pay bands.

Just a observers view.
T45
 
Lear70 said:
No, it's not.

The vast majority of our pilots are looking forward to working for such a great company. Truly.

You have to realize, we've been beat and battered for YEARS under hostile management. Our first instinct is to go on the defensive. It's going to take some time to get away from that...
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That's what I'm talking about!

Things are different here and it can take some getting used to, but it is "good different".

Let's get this thing together and get it moving ON!
 
Thanks, Lear. I do realize that. I just got pretty torqued reading what I quoted, and probably should've played with the dog sitting next to me for 10 minutes before replying. If there is a way that neither side will benefit at the expense of the other, I hope that the solutions offered will achieve that.

Our's is a great company, and that did come with a fight in many regards. It will soon be your company as well, and I hope you guys are added to it in a way that makes us all a better group of guys and gals.

Lear70 said:
No, it's not.

The vast majority of our pilots are looking forward to working for such a great company. Truly.

You have to realize, we've been beat and battered for YEARS under hostile management. Our first instinct is to go on the defensive. It's going to take some time to get away from that...
Click to expand...
 
T45Flyer said:
I would politely disagree with you. We all know that it would be greatly in Airtran's favor to do a JCBA contract before a SLI agreement. I'm not so sure that it's in SWAPA's best interest to do that. You can negotiate a document, does not have to mean you enact it. This quote came from a recent Tribune article about two ALPA carriers (UAL/CAL).

Inflaming matters, according to United leaders, were comments by Jayson Baron, who leads Continental pilots at its Newark, N.J., hub. Addressing a September meeting of leaders from both unions, Baron allegedly threatened to "hold up negotiations for years" and keep United pilots tied to a bankruptcy-era contract they consider draconian unless they agreed to Continental's proposed pay bands.

Just a observers view.
T45
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Yeah, that's a much longer story, but the moral is this:

UAL's MEC is not adhering to the process agreement they signed at the beginning of the merger/acquisition process. I would think SWAPA and AirTran would be less inclined to try to renege on an agreement.

It's also one of the reasons our MEC has decided to NOT require the MEC to vote on what the MC brings and also NOT to allow the pilot group to vote on it, either. Whatever our Merger Commitee brings back is what is signed with SWAPA's MC. The end. If they can't reach a deal, the MC alone has the authority to request Mediation, then, failing that, arbitration. Our pilots and our own MEC are out of the process just to prevent what we're seeing at CAL/UAL.

In the CAL/UAL mess, both sides' Merger Committees agreed on the new JCBA pay bands, which brings the UAL 747 pilots UP in pay to match the CAL 777 drivers. More pay, good deal, right? The CAL MEC thought so, and ratified the Merger Committee's solution.

However, the UAL MEC went AGAINST its OWN Merger Committee (TWICE) and said "No, we want the UAL 747 pilots to make MORE than CAL's 777 pilots, making it the top tier pay group". Drawing that parallel to OUR situation? I have a hard time believing our pilots, receiving pay raises across the board, would try to make the 717 pay more... ;)

So, by having the JCBA contingent on MEC ratification vote, it's been tied up for MONTHS and threatens to drag on even longer. It's not that having the JCBA before the SLI is a bad process, it's simply that you have to LET the process WORK as it's designed to by the process agreement which they BOTH agreed to, and not go back on your word to adhere to it.

I don't think that SWAPA or AAI ALPA would want to sour the relationship like this... too much to be gained with a POSITIVE working atmosphere. Then again, that's just my .02 cents, YMMV.
 
Lear, you're right that the respective Merger Committeee's are suppose to function independently from the MEC and that MEC's don't ratify seniority lists and furthermore, that the Negotiating Committee's ought to conduct their negotiations separate from the issues involved in seniority lists integration. Unfortunately, it appears that SLI politics has interfered with the process at UAL/CAL. Pay rates were agreed to by both negotiating committees and the CAL MEC, but apparently the UAL MEC believes that their 747s deserve premiere status, not withstanding the fact that UAL already bands the 777 and 747.
 
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Sy-bill said:
Everyone has good points to share.

I may be incorrect with the DAL/NW and AWA/US mergers. I can not find where DAL and AWA purchased NW and US with a price. SWA is purchasing AT for 1.4 billion. How much did DAL and AWA spend on their acquisitions of NW and US?
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I believe DAL's acquisition of NWA was valued at approximately $2.8B. It was a stock swap, where share holders of NWA stock were given DAL stock in exchange for their shares of NWA.
 
It seems the question here is more along the lines of, is this a merger or an aquisition? If it's an aquisition, what becomes of the Airtran pilot group?
 
Lear70 said:
I don't think that SWAPA or AAI ALPA would want to sour the relationship like this... too much to be gained with a POSITIVE working atmosphere. Then again, that's just my .02 cents, YMMV.
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Lear,
Swapa BOD and membership DOES have to vote on any contract agreement. I just doubt the SWAPA membership would be in any hurry to vote in a contract that gives Airtran pilots a significant qol and pay raises until they saw a SLI agreement.
Just my .02.
-T45
 
Could be... who knows. At least it's not boring. ;)

Just watching from the peanut gallery like the rest of us and trying, like everyone else, to gauge the "possible" outcomes.

And my tendencies run in the female varietal as well, not that there's anything wrong with the other... :pimp: lol
 
maru657 said:
It seems the question here is more along the lines of, is this a merger or an aquisition? If it's an aquisition, what becomes of the Airtran pilot group?
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Hello, Rip van Winkle . . . . Spend a few days getting up to speed, and then feel free to report back with any questions you have that are germaine to the issue.
 
maru657 said:
It seems the question here is more along the lines of, is this a merger or an aquisition? If it's an aquisition, what becomes of the Airtran pilot group?
Click to expand...

Integrated into the SWA seniority list in a fair and equitable manner.
 
PapaWoody said:
ivauir,
I do believe that our contract requires a re-opener for different aircraft types, which would cover having to negotiate terms for the 717 before they could come under our contract. I, however, don't believe that SWAPA would try to "punish" the AT guys by negotiating a low rate for 717 flying for two reasons. One, it would be construed by an arbitrator as being an extreme lack of good faith; and two, most importantly, it wouldn't be the right thing to do to our collective futures/culture. I would imagine that if GK wants us to fly the -800 for the same rates that we won't accept anything less for the 717's.

I would like to add that it is nice to see at least a small amount of reasonableness surfacing on this board. (If you squint, you can almost see it ;)) I'm not advocating any particular solution, but the initials DOH have been showing up a little more often, which maybe means that both sides aren't so entrenched in their positions that we won't be able to work something out between us. Nobody wins in arbitration, imo, and judging from looking at past decisions, the least reasonable group usually loses, again imo.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody
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Your Papas Woody,

Nice job on using paragraphs. I'm very proud. This proves that we can learn something from each other. It's heartening.

It also appears that you have attempted to educate yourself on the relevant law. Apparently you have actually picked up the phone and called your reps. Well done. Perhaps you'd like to review your previous posts and pass them on to your Merger Committee. They will thank you ...... Or not.

Keep up the good work. :D
 
scoreboardII said:
Contrite, condescending, and arrogant. Well done on the trifecta dicko!
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Please ..... I'm blushing. My peoples thank you. However, I don't think I was "contrite". That comes later.

He deserves the spanking. All of us have friends who work at SWA. They may be concerned. Some of them may even be pissed off that SWA didn't grow internally. That has nothing to do with AirTran pilots. None of them went "full retard" regarding the process that we are all going through.

No, I've never applied. Yes I'm qualified.

Cheers.
 
dicko said:
Your Papas Woody,

Nice job on using paragraphs. I'm very proud. This proves that we can learn something from each other. It's heartening.

It also appears that you have attempted to educate yourself on the relevant law. Apparently you have actually picked up the phone and called your reps. Well done. Perhaps you'd like to review your previous posts and pass them on to your Merger Committee. They will thank you ...... Or not.

Keep up the good work. :D
Click to expand...

Nope, I'll stand by everyone of my previous posts. If you want to re-read them, maybe this time you will notice that I never tried to even suggest what would happen with regards to the SLI. I did, however, point out some of the things that will probably considered as part of the totality of this individual situation. Maybe you don't agree, that's your right. But they were valid points, none the less.

Of course, I think it's funny that you never actually tried to rebut any of my arguments, you stooped to pointing out grammatical errors. Heaven forbid I would make such a heinous faux pas on FI. Again, the word for the day is relevancy, kiddos. It's in the dictionary somewhere between rehab and retard, in case you need a little help finding it, dicko. Which, judging from your previous posts, you do.

PW
 

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