Will SWA and AT truly merge?

[T45Flyer]

HIGHLY unlikely.

The JCBA will be in place with 717 rates LONG before the SLI is done. Both AAI ALPA and SWAPA are out there in Dallas working on the Process Agreement right now. The "successful" mergers are ones done where the JCBA is finalized long before the SLI is ever done, both sides know it, and I highly doubt we'll see a process agreement that has the SLI happening before the JCBA. As such, we'll know the 717 rates long before the SLI is ever even CLOSE to being done.

Funny how the 4 attorneys (3 ALPA, 1 outside counsel) are disagreeing with you. Seeing as this is their actual JOB, and not just an armchair hobby, I'm going with their answer. Thanks for your input, however.

I would politely disagree with you. We all know that it would be greatly in Airtran's favor to do a JCBA contract before a SLI agreement. I'm not so sure that it's in SWAPA's best interest to do that. You can negotiate a document, does not have to mean you enact it. This quote came from a recent Tribune article about two ALPA carriers (UAL/CAL).

Inflaming matters, according to United leaders, were comments by Jayson Baron, who leads Continental pilots at its Newark, N.J., hub. Addressing a September meeting of leaders from both unions, Baron allegedly threatened to "hold up negotiations for years" and keep United pilots tied to a bankruptcy-era contract they consider draconian unless they agreed to Continental's proposed pay bands.

Just a observers view.
T45

 

[ivauir]

No, it's not.

The vast majority of our pilots are looking forward to working for such a great company. Truly.

You have to realize, we've been beat and battered for YEARS under hostile management. Our first instinct is to go on the defensive. It's going to take some time to get away from that...

That's what I'm talking about!

Things are different here and it can take some getting used to, but it is "good different".

Let's get this thing together and get it moving ON!

 

[Mickey D]

Thanks, Lear. I do realize that. I just got pretty torqued reading what I quoted, and probably should've played with the dog sitting next to me for 10 minutes before replying. If there is a way that neither side will benefit at the expense of the other, I hope that the solutions offered will achieve that.

Our's is a great company, and that did come with a fight in many regards. It will soon be your company as well, and I hope you guys are added to it in a way that makes us all a better group of guys and gals.

No, it's not.

The vast majority of our pilots are looking forward to working for such a great company. Truly.

You have to realize, we've been beat and battered for YEARS under hostile management. Our first instinct is to go on the defensive. It's going to take some time to get away from that...

 

[Lear70]

So when I buy you a beer on an overnight, you promise not to bite me, right?

PapaW

Depends...

Are you hot?

What are you wearing...?

:lol:

 

[Flyarcticcat]

Depends...

Are you hot?

What are you wearing...?

:lol:

Two dudes talking of biting each other gross?

 

[Lear70]

I would politely disagree with you. We all know that it would be greatly in Airtran's favor to do a JCBA contract before a SLI agreement. I'm not so sure that it's in SWAPA's best interest to do that. You can negotiate a document, does not have to mean you enact it. This quote came from a recent Tribune article about two ALPA carriers (UAL/CAL).

Inflaming matters, according to United leaders, were comments by Jayson Baron, who leads Continental pilots at its Newark, N.J., hub. Addressing a September meeting of leaders from both unions, Baron allegedly threatened to "hold up negotiations for years" and keep United pilots tied to a bankruptcy-era contract they consider draconian unless they agreed to Continental's proposed pay bands.

Just a observers view.
T45

Yeah, that's a much longer story, but the moral is this:

UAL's MEC is not adhering to the process agreement they signed at the beginning of the merger/acquisition process. I would think SWAPA and AirTran would be less inclined to try to renege on an agreement.

It's also one of the reasons our MEC has decided to NOT require the MEC to vote on what the MC brings and also NOT to allow the pilot group to vote on it, either. Whatever our Merger Commitee brings back is what is signed with SWAPA's MC. The end. If they can't reach a deal, the MC alone has the authority to request Mediation, then, failing that, arbitration. Our pilots and our own MEC are out of the process just to prevent what we're seeing at CAL/UAL.

In the CAL/UAL mess, both sides' Merger Committees agreed on the new JCBA pay bands, which brings the UAL 747 pilots UP in pay to match the CAL 777 drivers. More pay, good deal, right? The CAL MEC thought so, and ratified the Merger Committee's solution.

However, the UAL MEC went AGAINST its OWN Merger Committee (TWICE) and said "No, we want the UAL 747 pilots to make MORE than CAL's 777 pilots, making it the top tier pay group". Drawing that parallel to OUR situation? I have a hard time believing our pilots, receiving pay raises across the board, would try to make the 717 pay more...

So, by having the JCBA contingent on MEC ratification vote, it's been tied up for MONTHS and threatens to drag on even longer. It's not that having the JCBA before the SLI is a bad process, it's simply that you have to LET the process WORK as it's designed to by the process agreement which they BOTH agreed to, and not go back on your word to adhere to it.

I don't think that SWAPA or AAI ALPA would want to sour the relationship like this... too much to be gained with a POSITIVE working atmosphere. Then again, that's just my .02 cents, YMMV.

 

[PapaWoody]

Two dudes talking of biting each other gross?

I think your inclusion of a ? at the end of that sentence is a clear indication of your latent tendencies.

PW

 

[PapaWoody]

Depends...

Are you hot?

What are you wearing...?

:lol:

For the record, I'm about as hot as my avatar and nowhere near as bi-curious as Stewie and FAC seem to be.

"Olive juice", "Olive juice you, too." lol

PW

 

[FDJ2]

Lear, you're right that the respective Merger Committeee's are suppose to function independently from the MEC and that MEC's don't ratify seniority lists and furthermore, that the Negotiating Committee's ought to conduct their negotiations separate from the issues involved in seniority lists integration. Unfortunately, it appears that SLI politics has interfered with the process at UAL/CAL. Pay rates were agreed to by both negotiating committees and the CAL MEC, but apparently the UAL MEC believes that their 747s deserve premiere status, not withstanding the fact that UAL already bands the 777 and 747.

 

[FDJ2]

Everyone has good points to share.

I may be incorrect with the DAL/NW and AWA/US mergers. I can not find where DAL and AWA purchased NW and US with a price. SWA is purchasing AT for 1.4 billion. How much did DAL and AWA spend on their acquisitions of NW and US?

I believe DAL's acquisition of NWA was valued at approximately $2.8B. It was a stock swap, where share holders of NWA stock were given DAL stock in exchange for their shares of NWA.

 

[maru657]

It seems the question here is more along the lines of, is this a merger or an aquisition? If it's an aquisition, what becomes of the Airtran pilot group?

 

[T45Flyer]

I don't think that SWAPA or AAI ALPA would want to sour the relationship like this... too much to be gained with a POSITIVE working atmosphere. Then again, that's just my .02 cents, YMMV.

Lear,
Swapa BOD and membership DOES have to vote on any contract agreement. I just doubt the SWAPA membership would be in any hurry to vote in a contract that gives Airtran pilots a significant qol and pay raises until they saw a SLI agreement.
Just my .02.
-T45

 

[Lear70]

Could be... who knows. At least it's not boring.

Just watching from the peanut gallery like the rest of us and trying, like everyone else, to gauge the "possible" outcomes.

And my tendencies run in the female varietal as well, not that there's anything wrong with the other... imp: lol

 

[Ty Webb]

It seems the question here is more along the lines of, is this a merger or an aquisition? If it's an aquisition, what becomes of the Airtran pilot group?

Hello, Rip van Winkle . . . . Spend a few days getting up to speed, and then feel free to report back with any questions you have that are germaine to the issue.

 

[texman]

Hello, Rip van Winkle . . . . Spend a few days getting up to speed, and then feel free to report back with any questions you have that are germaine to the issue.

That's funny! Lol.

 

[FDJ2]

It seems the question here is more along the lines of, is this a merger or an aquisition? If it's an aquisition, what becomes of the Airtran pilot group?

Integrated into the SWA seniority list in a fair and equitable manner.

 

[dicko]

ivauir,
I do believe that our contract requires a re-opener for different aircraft types, which would cover having to negotiate terms for the 717 before they could come under our contract. I, however, don't believe that SWAPA would try to "punish" the AT guys by negotiating a low rate for 717 flying for two reasons. One, it would be construed by an arbitrator as being an extreme lack of good faith; and two, most importantly, it wouldn't be the right thing to do to our collective futures/culture. I would imagine that if GK wants us to fly the -800 for the same rates that we won't accept anything less for the 717's.

I would like to add that it is nice to see at least a small amount of reasonableness surfacing on this board. (If you squint, you can almost see it ) I'm not advocating any particular solution, but the initials DOH have been showing up a little more often, which maybe means that both sides aren't so entrenched in their positions that we won't be able to work something out between us. Nobody wins in arbitration, imo, and judging from looking at past decisions, the least reasonable group usually loses, again imo.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

Your Papas Woody,

Nice job on using paragraphs. I'm very proud. This proves that we can learn something from each other. It's heartening.

It also appears that you have attempted to educate yourself on the relevant law. Apparently you have actually picked up the phone and called your reps. Well done. Perhaps you'd like to review your previous posts and pass them on to your Merger Committee. They will thank you ...... Or not.

Keep up the good work.

 

[scoreboardII]

Contrite, condescending, and arrogant. Well done on the trifecta dicko!

 

[dicko]

Contrite, condescending, and arrogant. Well done on the trifecta dicko!

Please ..... I'm blushing. My peoples thank you. However, I don't think I was "contrite". That comes later.

He deserves the spanking. All of us have friends who work at SWA. They may be concerned. Some of them may even be pissed off that SWA didn't grow internally. That has nothing to do with AirTran pilots. None of them went "full retard" regarding the process that we are all going through.

No, I've never applied. Yes I'm qualified.

Cheers.

 

[PapaWoody]

Your Papas Woody,

Nice job on using paragraphs. I'm very proud. This proves that we can learn something from each other. It's heartening.

It also appears that you have attempted to educate yourself on the relevant law. Apparently you have actually picked up the phone and called your reps. Well done. Perhaps you'd like to review your previous posts and pass them on to your Merger Committee. They will thank you ...... Or not.

Keep up the good work.

Nope, I'll stand by everyone of my previous posts. If you want to re-read them, maybe this time you will notice that I never tried to even suggest what would happen with regards to the SLI. I did, however, point out some of the things that will probably considered as part of the totality of this individual situation. Maybe you don't agree, that's your right. But they were valid points, none the less.

Of course, I think it's funny that you never actually tried to rebut any of my arguments, you stooped to pointing out grammatical errors. Heaven forbid I would make such a heinous faux pas on FI. Again, the word for the day is relevancy, kiddos. It's in the dictionary somewhere between rehab and retard, in case you need a little help finding it, dicko. Which, judging from your previous posts, you do.

PW

 

[Lowrider717]

Doe FI have software that lets us edit out posting that includes dick measuring. That would bring this 30 pager down to about 5.

 

[TxPilot0878]

No Such Thing!

What about our route structure and our loyal customers? Did you also know when you become productive like us, our and your future airline ticket prices will drop 50% in ATL. This is all because of SWA. .

C'mon...no such thing as a loyal customer I don't care who you are. People and businesses are loyal only to the bottom dollar. Many of the people you think are loyal will be on other carriers tomorrow. No one likes getting screwed or paying more...the service provided at southwest is better but not justified just to fly the name. The reason people fly swa is for the low price!

Southwest has for a very long time pulled a huge market share and been HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL for it. But it has outgrown that "PURITY" or as you identify an ideal "LOYALTY" phase.

Southwest overcharges in many markets...I have taken Airtran, American, and others over Southwest because they were CHEAPER...and the baggage fees still wouldn't come close....no NO LOYALTY!

I have no dog in this fight...but hopefully the merger will expand the low cost structure and bring the new company a huge amount of growth and longevity, and low cost competition....not domination of the market and increase in prices due to LESS COMPETITION.

Regards,

Tex

 

[Lear70]

You have to admit, Tex, some of these fares are RIDICULOUSLY low...

In order for Commercial Aviation to survive, fares needed to come up, and they have, in dribs and drabs, $5 here, $10 there, Checked bag fee here, etc. They will CONTINUE to come up as long as people get on the planes. When the planes stop filling up, the fare will go back down. Not PERFECTLY elastic, but supply and demand works, but only insofar as a product isn't priced BELOW its cost to produce it just to stay in the market, thus making EVERYONE lose money.

Long story short,,, fares needed to come up, they have, and airlines are posting profits again. They need to come up a bit more and restore the pay and benefits we had pre-9/11. Not what travelers want to hear, but another $15-20 would go a LONG way towards doing that...

 

[GuppyWN]

Fares are up over 60% over last year.

Gup

 

[slaquer5]

You have to admit, Tex, some of these fares are RIDICULOUSLY low...



Long story short,,, fares needed to come up, they have, and airlines are posting profits again. They need to come up a bit more and restore the pay and benefits we had pre-9/11. Not what travelers want to hear, but another $15-20 would go a LONG way towards doing that...

Your Kidding I hope. Go look at what the legacy charge where there is no LCC competition. Also go do some research as to what they have charged in some cities before several up-starts. Then after they ran them out of business.

 

[Lear70]

Fares are up over 60% over last year.

Gup

Good. Seems the few full revenue tix from TN to MCO I bought last year averaged about $90 each way including the fees and taxes, so 60% is $54 additional each way. Doesn't sound all that unfair when you start talking real numbers.

Even that $300 coast-to-coast fare (round trip) would be up $90 each way. Not what the traveler wants to hear, but when it would cost you almost $1,000 to drive it and 3 days each direction, spending 6 hours each way on a plane for HALF that amount, saving 4 days of driving, sounds fair enough to me...

YMMV

 

[Richard Gozinya]

If they can't reach a deal, the MC alone has the authority to request Mediation, then, failing that, arbitration.

Lear, mediation WILL happen before arbitration.

 

[Lear70]

Your Kidding I hope. Go look at what the legacy charge where there is no LCC competition. Also go do some research as to what they have charged in some cities before several up-starts. Then after they ran them out of business.

Well, that's the real key, isn't it? "where there is no LCC competition".

Of COURSE they can have higher fares where there's no competition, but how many city pairings DOMESTICALLY can you say that about? A dozen? MAJOR cities? Maybe?

Almost every MAJOR city has LCC competition. Most fares (and I had to buy most of my tickets at full revenue the last 3 years and traveled almost every week) to most cities in the U.S. I had to travel were MUCH lower the last few years than they were just 9 or 10 years ago.

In the last 4 years, almost every major carrier has posted losses, even as recently as 2009 when the oil was BACK to normal, wages were low, planes were full, but carriers were STILL losing money. Flash forward one year, a few fare hikes, some increased baggage fees, and boom! Almost everyone is profitable again. Might be something to that whole "fares needed to come up" argument.

Then again, I could be wrong... it's happened before... I'm just a pilot armchair quarterbacking financial decisions from the cheap seats.

 

[Lear70]

Lear, mediation WILL happen before arbitration.

I thought that's what I said...??

Negotiation fails, Mediation requested.

Mediation fails, Arbitration requested. (that whole "failing that" part of my statement).

Must have been lost in translation or my crappy writing skills, pick one.

Either way, I trust our Merger Committee to find a good middle ground. None of them are jerks or hot heads, some of them are nerdier than others (our resident numbers cruncher who I used to fly with and is a good guy, but I know is reading these posts so I'm poking a little fun at him), some are "Good ole boys" from Dallas (who is likely also reading these posts but never posts himself), but all-in-all, they have the pulse of the pilot group, were line guys just like the rest of us until they were pulled from the line for the MC, and know that the VAST majority of us are looking forward to joining the SWA team and don't mind a little "give and take" as long as it's a fair shake in the end.

I also would bet money that SWAPA has put a good set of people together who are intelligent, reasonable, and will want something that keeps us pulling together after it's all said and done. Not everyone will be happy, but I hope most will believe that it was done fairly when the dust settles.

The beer offer still stands, btw. :beer:

 

[johnsonrod]

Lear, mediation WILL happen before arbitration.

Rich,

That may be the route, but Arbitration will be the end result. A neutral will decide your fate, which is the way it should be. Seniority is forever. Little deals between MEC members and Negotiating Teams should be avoided. Just go right to the arbitration, and have a good lawyer. No hard feeling, just business.