Will SWA and AT truly merge?

[texman]

LISTEN AFTER A COUPLE OF BEERS. IT WILL HELP THIS THREAD. CHILLLLLLLLLL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SCGbbw1Zro

 

[Dude]

To the person making personal attacks on a pilot who is allegedly part of the SWAPA MC, knock it off. I thought I had made it PERFECTLY clear that there would be no more of the personal attacks.

Lear,

Who are you talking about?

 

[Lear70]

Lear,

Who are you talking about?

OurMoney1

Posts #228 and #234 in this thread where he or she is trashing a member of the SWAPA MC. Not going to start down this road, leaving the posts up so people can see what I'm talking about, but further trashing of people like this will result in a 30 day suspension and deletion of the offending comments.

/mod

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

While FDJ and I were once on opposite sides of the table, everything that he has said in the past has proven to be accurate.

Separate ops is fine, but understand what AT brings to the table that SWA wants. They want ATL (gate leases belong to AT), slots in LGA and DCA (again in AT's name), and most importantly, the ETOPS and international ops, which belong to the AT operating certificate, and cannot be easily transferred. Slot and foreign authority transfer hearings take time, and you just don't swap ops spec authority from one certificate to another willy nilly.

SWA wants AT because they are out of easy growth opportunities...there is no where for them TO grow without them, and to think they'd run separate ops just to work around a culture may be naive, counter to what's been in the press and SEC disclosure, and operationally expensive (two sets of management, two operating certificates, two of everything).

Nu

 

[ATLplt]

Nu, please do not try to bring logic and reason to this board. You're gonna ruin all the grenade lobbing and luv.

 

[Sy-bill]

Heyas,
and to think they'd run separate ops just to work around a culture may be naive
Nu

You grossly under estimate the value SWA puts on its culture. It is worth far more than 300mil to them. They have mentioned more than several times in press releases how important the culture will be with this transaction.

Separate ops does not mean separate brand. USairways east and west have proven the possibility of two contracts. Not what I would want but the pilots seem to be satisfied with the arrangement.

Most (if not most all) the first Officers at SWA want a relative seniority gain with this acquisition. The junior Captains also I am certain. This they find fair with the tremendous salary, benefits and othe QOL gains the AT pilots will automatically receive.

Integration is a broad word with many different possibilities. SWA will choose what is best for the company.

 

[Ty Webb]

Most (if not most all) the first Officers at SWA want a relative seniority gain with this acquisition.

Pretty strong stuff coming from a guy who says he doesn't work there.

Which one is it? I have little tolerance for people that post ad nauseum about an airline but don't have the cojones to say where they work.


.

 

[Sy-bill]

Pretty strong stuff coming from a guy who says he doesn't work there.

Which one is it? I have little tolerance for people that post ad nauseum about an airline but don't have the cojones to say where they work.


.

One does not need to go far to get the pulse of that work group. Just as I bet your group wants relative seniority. These really are not difficult assumptions to make anyways.

No one has asked you to tolerate anything. Who says I work for an airline?

You can ignore me. And based on your frustration over irrelevant issues with me, I recommend you do.

 

[Kharma Police]

Pretty strong stuff coming from a guy who says he doesn't work there.

Which one is it? I have little tolerance for people that post ad nauseum about an airline but don't have the cojones to say where they work.


.

Yes, I too find it odd that a guy that claims he has no vested interest has such a deep knowledge of Southwest's culture and history and such a partisan view point. I think he read a post of mine that stated that every airline in the industry seems to agree that the SLI should go to arbitration. He is pretending to be an outside observer unselfishly trying to make us Trannys see the light with his point of view but his post's make it quite obvious who he really works for.

 

[NuGuy]

You grossly under estimate the value SWA puts on its culture. It is worth far more than 300mil to them. They have mentioned more than several times in press releases how important the culture will be with this transaction.

Separate ops does not mean separate brand. USairways east and west have proven the possibility of two contracts. Not what I would want but the pilots seem to be satisfied with the arrangement.

Most (if not most all) the first Officers at SWA want a relative seniority gain with this acquisition. The junior Captains also I am certain. This they find fair with the tremendous salary, benefits and othe QOL gains the AT pilots will automatically receive.

Integration is a broad word with many different possibilities. SWA will choose what is best for the company.

Heyas,

Just so we're clear:

1) The NMB LOVES precedent. They love it because it doesn't make it look like they're inventing anything. This goes double (or triple) if it was recent.

2) The last few pilot arbitrations has gone straight relative seniority. Strip the handwaving/justification away from the recent DAL/NWA merger, and that's what you got, down to a decimal point. Pay didn't matter, contracts didn't matter, merger or acquisition didn't matter, relative size didn't matter. AAA/AWA was essentially the same, with the exception of a cutout for the larger 330 aircraft. AAI/SWA has no such differential.

3) Alot of effort has been used to move away the DOH method of integration. It will be VERY difficult to re-introduce it at this point and be able to point to recent precendence.

4) Pay/contracts do not figure into the equation. The career expectaions that the NMB will see is this: SWA pilot at the end of 20 years: 737 captain. AAI pilot at the end of 20 years: 737 captain.

5) Holding companies prior to SOC are extremely common, and nothing should be read into it. The companies cannot fully merge until they have achived a single operating certificate, which is not done overnight. NWA was placed into their own holding company, operated as a subsidiary to DAL until that date. Even though they carried DAL paint, NWA birds read "Operated by Northwest Airlines" , and used the NWA callsign until SOC, which was a year after the corporate closing.

6) The SWA pilots and the AAI pilots can decide in their own mind whatever is fair, but what they think doesn't matter. In the end, both sides agree, or someone else gets to decide what is fair for them.

7) While it is true that SWA management MAY decide to run a legal gauntlet to set up separate ops, it would be a risk to do so. Relying upon what SWA management has considered important in the past, such as corprate culture, is also suspect, because so may of the other things that were important to them in the past have been jettisoned already, including mergers, hub operations, congested airports, code sharing and bigger/different aircraft.

8) Depending on some sleigh of hand corporate handwaving on SWAs part to avoid combining the pilot groups may help you sleep at night, but I would place odds against it. What you see in the SEC filings happening is a safe bet.

Nu

 

[General Lee]

Gen, if all that is true, why doesn't it work that way in the rest of the country? You know why, dollar cost averaging, that is why. Take care you have a great day, I hear Delta is a swell place to work these days, enjoy it.

ASADFW7,

Yeah, DL is a swell place to work, and hopefully SWA style pay wages will come back this way again someday. The point I was making with regard to AT is that every employee group there will want to make at least what current SWA employees make, which is top scale for the whole industry. That means it will get more expensive for SWA to bring parity, because they don't want to disturb that SWA Culture. How will they do that? Probably by raising fares, and that is good for all airlines. Have a great one.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[SWA/FO]

General,

SWA makes money now, paying all their employees. I would guess that this will continue after we aquire Tranny.

 

[Kharma Police]

ASADFW7,

Yeah, DL is a swell place to work, and hopefully SWA style pay wages will come back this way again someday. The point I was making with regard to AT is that every employee group there will want to make at least what current SWA employees make, which is top scale for the whole industry. That means it will get more expensive for SWA to bring parity, because they don't want to disturb that SWA Culture. How will they do that? Probably by raising fares, and that is good for all airlines. Have a great one.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Respectfully, the combined Delta was able to make money after bringing pay parity to all employees.

 

[General Lee]

I luv u gen nuts! the retirements are calculated off the SWA side. This includes posible medical and early retirements. I stated it was a AVG of 2000. Gen you are a person of good information. (most of the time). I think you are scared of the possibilities this acquisition might bring.

Texman,

I hope you are right about your retirment numbers. Big time movement is always good for junior people, at any airline. As far as being scared of the possibilities of this merger of yours, yes, that will bring a lot more price competition to some of the DL hubs. As far as infrastructure goes, it will be hard for SWA to acquire more gates at ATL, since all of the gates were recently leased again for the next 7 years (with the city). And, 25 min turns are hard to do in ATL, and probably LGA as you know by now. Some airports like LBB are probably easier to get those turns out on time.

But, there is no doubt adding AT to the SWA mix will provide pressure on the legacies, and also cost pressures to SWA. You just can't have a B-Scale and keep the "culture." The good thing about that for DL employees is that that may also mean higher wages for DL employees too, since AT used to be a lot lower cost, and DL would always complain that they couldn't COMPETE against AT with their lower wages. Well, that means DL employees will be asking for at least what the "neighbors" have.... I guess costs will go up for a lot of airlines thanks to your merger.

Regardless, YOU ALL ARE FANTASTIC people, and I hope you go out there and do something nice for someone today, like buying a greek Gyro sandwich and giving it to a pal. No, that doesn't mean you "like" him, that means you like those sandwiches. "Going Greek" isn't always bad..... See ya!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[texman]

Heyas,

Just so we're clear:

1) The NMB LOVES precedent. They love it because it doesn't make it look like they're inventing anything. This goes double (or triple) if it was recent.

2) The last few pilot arbitrations has gone straight relative seniority. Strip the handwaving/justification away from the recent DAL/NWA merger, and that's what you got, down to a decimal point. Pay didn't matter, contracts didn't matter, merger or acquisition didn't matter, relative size didn't matter. AAA/AWA was essentially the same, with the exception of a cutout for the larger 330 aircraft. AAI/SWA has no such differential.

3) Alot of effort has been used to move away the DOH method of integration. It will be VERY difficult to re-introduce it at this point and be able to point to recent precendence.

4) Pay/contracts do not figure into the equation. The career expectaions that the NMB will see is this: SWA pilot at the end of 20 years: 737 captain. AAI pilot at the end of 20 years: 737 captain.

5) Holding companies prior to SOC are extremely common, and nothing should be read into it. The companies cannot fully merge until they have achived a single operating certificate, which is not done overnight. NWA was placed into their own holding company, operated as a subsidiary to DAL until that date. Even though they carried DAL paint, NWA birds read "Operated by Northwest Airlines" , and used the NWA callsign until SOC, which was a year after the corporate closing.

6) The SWA pilots and the AAI pilots can decide in their own mind whatever is fair, but what they think doesn't matter. In the end, both sides agree, or someone else gets to decide what is fair for them.

7) While it is true that SWA management MAY decide to run a legal gauntlet to set up separate ops, it would be a risk to do so. Relying upon what SWA management has considered important in the past, such as corprate culture, is also suspect, because so may of the other things that were important to them in the past have been jettisoned already, including mergers, hub operations, congested airports, code sharing and bigger/different aircraft.

8) Depending on some sleigh of hand corporate handwaving on SWAs part to avoid combining the pilot groups may help you sleep at night, but I would place odds against it. What you see in the SEC filings happening is a safe bet.

Nu

Nu,

No flame, but how would this be same as NWA/DAL? So recent precedents would not apply. I think you will see a whole different outcome. Not saying unfair but fair in regards to the big picture. SWA is smart. They are not changing but evolving. Don't think that yesterday the company said " looks like we cant make money anymore, let's do something drastic. This has been in the plans since 1971. If you don't evolve you die. Freedom to fly!

 

[General Lee]

Respectfully, the combined Delta was able to make money after bringing pay parity to all employees.

I agree, but some on here think there should be a B-Scale, or they should get something in return for bringing up one group. That just won't happen, other than a slight increase for the larger group. Maybe a 5% raise for the larger group.

When you state that DL made money after paying parity, DL also did NOT pay past DL wages prior to BK. They may have to do that soon in the new contract, but they are still getting a good deal with 744 Capts at DL getting about the same as SWA 737 Captains. Do you think that is fair? DL had a $929 million profit for Q3. But, SWA will be paying AT SWA style wages, and that is top scale currently---for AT employees that are not at that level. That will be a huge jump in pay, and a jump for the payroll dept. So, fares will probably rise as a result, which is good for everyone.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Nu,

No flame, but how would this be same as NWA/DAL? So recent precedents would not apply. I think you will see a whole different outcome. Not saying unfair but fair in regards to the big picture. SWA is smart. They are not changing but evolving. Don't think that yesterday the company said " looks like we cant make money anymore, let's do something drastic. This has been in the plans since 1971. If you don't evolve you die. Freedom to fly!

Arbitrators like to stick to precedent for SLI. That way, they can blame everything on someone else. It's all about blame. If you don't like the decision, you can always blame the arbitrator(s), lawyers, other decisions, etc.

And, SWA is evolving, because they were running out of places to expand. They have plenty of aircraft orders, but they lacked gates and slots at places they could expand. AT gives them some extra room now. But, you will have to take the AT employees with you. IT'S ALL GOOD!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[texman]

Texman,

I hope you are right about your retirment numbers. Big time movement is always good for junior people, at any airline. As far as being scared of the possibilities of this merger of yours, yes, that will bring a lot more price competition to some of the DL hubs. As far as infrastructure goes, it will be hard for SWA to acquire more gates at ATL, since all of the gates were recently leased again for the next 7 years (with the city). And, 25 min turns are hard to do in ATL, and probably LGA as you know by now. Some airports like LBB are probably easier to get those turns out on time.

But, there is no doubt adding AT to the SWA mix will provide pressure on the legacies, and also cost pressures to SWA. You just can't have a B-Scale and keep the "culture." The good thing about that for DL employees is that that may also mean higher wages for DL employees too, since AT used to be a lot lower cost, and DL would always complain that they couldn't COMPETE against AT with their lower wages. Well, that means DL employees will be asking for at least what the "neighbors" have.... I guess costs will go up for a lot of airlines thanks to your merger.

Regardless, YOU ALL ARE FANTASTIC people, and I hope you go out there and do something nice for someone today, like buying a greek Gyro sandwich and giving it to a pal. No, that doesn't mean you "like" him, that means you like those sandwiches. "Going Greek" isn't always bad..... See ya!


Bye Bye--General Lee

No doubt AT will bring a lot to the table. But with our route structure to other cities besides ATL, you will see the AT side being optimize like crazy. So cost pressures will be status quo. AT is a low Frequency airline we are a high freq. We do work hard, but that allows the good compensation.

I will say, AT will not be a b scale side of the company. There are to many former airline guy's at SWA that won't let that fly (even some of your early buy out brothers from dal). All the AT guy's will be SWA.

Here is what I see on this thread. A lot of SWA guy's have been educated on the AM/MB heavily from our union. I don't think they are popping off to be nasty, they are just stating information from what our contract states in it and what AM/MB really means to the whole acquisition. The union ran several scenarios with all the airlines (us buying or being bought). The MB will be law, but it does not state relative seniority is fair . Everybody keeps saying it will be like, or should be like the NWA/DAL deal. I have to disagree. I worry more it being like aa/twa if we don't play nice. Happy work force = Prosperity. What ever way it plays out, I wish us the best of luck.

 

[ivauir]

Comparing this deal to DAL/NW is just silly.

I suggest you drop the flamebait.

Your life is about to change dramatically! You're going to LUV it here!

 

[texman]

Arbitrators like to stick to precedent for SLI. That way, they can blame everything on someone else. It's all about blame. If you don't like the decision, you can always blame the arbitrator(s), lawyers, other decisions, etc.

And, SWA is evolving, because they were running out of places to expand. They have plenty of aircraft orders, but they lacked gates and slots at places they could expand. AT gives them some extra room now. But, you will have to take the AT employees with you. IT'S ALL GOOD!


Bye Bye--General Lee

We have 71 firm orders on our side too. They will either be replacement aircraft or net growth who knows? I don't think we are running out of places, I think we just took out are biggest competitor. For cheap. Plus we did gain ATL, slots and a bigger east coast presence. But people have to remember that SWA brings 5 times to the table on every thing ( the list is to long). Can you imagine the synergies. All positive.